# Is "Uncle Tom" Hate Speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973 "2011-09-11T20:41:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/21 "2011-09-12T02:45:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I just explained how it’s different. “Uncle Tom” does not express hostility towards a racial group. And I responded to that point. See Post # 8. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/22 "2011-09-12T02:54:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And I responded to that point. You really didn’t. The term is insulting to the person being described as an Uncle Tom, but it doesn’t put all black people down. Although if black people object to anyone being compared to a slave, I’d understand that. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/23 "2011-09-12T02:58:30Z")
I’ll admit, the only time I’ve heard anyone call a black person an “Uncle Tom” was when the speaker was a black person. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/24 "2011-09-12T03:03:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You really didn’t. The term is insulting to the person being described as an Uncle Tom, but it doesn’t put all black people down. Although if black people object to anyone being compared to a slave, I’d understand that. Well the point of using Uncle Tom epithet is to adress a slave like mentality, whatever the colour or the ethnic background. Next, you cant tell a black guy he’s a wage slave? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/25 "2011-09-12T03:07:42Z")
“Uncle Tom” is a racially based and motivated insult, used to denigrate and suppress a certain type of behavior based upon race and preconceived notions about how people of a certain race “should” behave. So yes, I think it is every bit as much hate speech as any other insult which is based upon a person’s race. And sorry, but I don’t agree with the “subset” argument either. After all, using the n-word to describe black athletes is just as offensive as using it about the entire race. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/26 "2011-09-12T03:09:39Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Well the point of using Uncle Tom epithet is to adress a slave like mentality, whatever the colour or the ethnic background Yes, but I’ve never seen it used to describe anyone who wasn’t a black American. You can call anyone a wage slave. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/27 "2011-09-12T03:11:32Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Well the point of using Uncle Tom epithet is to adress a slave like mentality… To the degree this has ever been the case it most certainly isn’t so today. Today the term is applied mostly to blacks with conservative values, by people with liberal values. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/28 "2011-09-12T03:14:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You really didn’t. The term is insulting to the person being described as an Uncle Tom, but it doesn’t put all black people down. Although if black people object to anyone being compared to a slave, I’d understand that. Yeah, I did. I pointed out that his reasoning was flawed. THAT was the purpose of the post. His reasoning was that there was “no equivalency to “nigger” here, because it’s not an expression of bigotry against a racial group.”. And here is my response: > [@](#): > > How is it different. Nigger is a word directed at an individual Black. So is Uncle Tom. Both are insults and neither can be hurled against a non-Black person. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/29 "2011-09-12T03:14:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > “Uncle Tom” is a racially based and motivated insult, used to denigrate and suppress a certain type of behavior based upon race and preconceived notions about how people of a certain race “should” behave. It’s more about the idea that people of the same race or group share common interests and that members of the group shouldn’t do things that are perceived to be against those interests. > [@magellan01](#): > > And here is my response: Yes, I read it already. It does not address the core issue: “Uncle Tom” may be applied only to black people, and it is insulting to the black person to whom it is being applied, but it is not simultaneously an insult to all black people. If one poster called another an Uncle Tom in GD, I’d give a note or warning. But that’s for insults, not hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/30 "2011-09-12T03:15:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Today the term is applied mostly to blacks with conservative values, by people with liberal values. We don’t need a proxy battle for liberals and conservatives. If this thread moves in that direction, it will get shut down. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/31 "2011-09-12T03:17:35Z")
> [@splatterpunk](#): > > Jesus Christ. Why do racists insist on playing these ridiculous games? > > “Someone used the term ‘Uncle Tom’ and didn’t get a warning. Why can’t I call a black man a spearchucker and not get warned for hate speech? It’s the same thing!!” > [@splatterpunk](#): > > I’ve made that abundantly clear to any yutz who can read. Your post implied that there is no fundamental difference between referring to someone as an Uncle Tom and calling someone a nigger. I implied that you are full of the well-known article. I then asked you to explain how the two situations are in any way equivalent. > > You have yet “supply” any “thinking” for me to disagree with. This is acting like a jerk, especially in About This Message Board, where you are expected to maintain a civil tone when dealing with other posters. If there’s any more of this in the thread from anyone this thread will be closed. If you want to fight with someone take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/32 "2011-09-12T03:24:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And I responded to that point. See Post # 8. “Insult” is not a criterion for hate speech and neither is “cannot be used against a non-black person.” You made up a fake criterion. “Hate speech,” as that phrase is commonly used, is language which directs hostility towards a group as a whole. “uncle Tom” does not meet that criterion. You cannot point to a group which is being disparaged by it. For the record, I don’t have a problem with hate speech being allowed on the board anyway, but this isn’t hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/33 "2011-09-12T03:26:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > To the degree this has ever been the case it most certainly isn’t so today. Today the term is applied mostly to blacks with conservative values, by people with liberal values. > [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, but I’ve never seen it used to describe anyone who wasn’t a black American. You can call anyone a wage slave. Well, then the meaning has spectacularly changed and I had no idea. Or some people are just making shit up. Cause, at the very least in British English, it can be used without any ref whatsoever to the target of the “insult” being black. I know this is an American board, not a British one, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/34 "2011-09-12T03:43:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We don’t need a proxy battle for liberals and conservatives. If this thread moves in that direction, it will get shut down. I’m not trying to start a battle here **Marley** , I’m really not. But at the same time we need to discuss how the term is used and why. Otherwise there’s no point in the thread. I submit that the term as it’s used currently is 100% political in nature and we have to address this fact if we’re going to have any meaningful discussion as to why it’s used, what it means, and its intended impact upon the people to whom it’s aimed. ETA: And I believe we can do that without turning the discussion into a proxy battle between liberals and conservatives. I think even most liberals would agree that the term is used mostly by them against blacks with conservative values. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/35 "2011-09-12T03:46:20Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Well, then the meaning has spectacularly changed and I had no idea. > Or some people are just making shit up. You have no idea. In American English, it has always been directed at black people, although most often by fellow blacks. The character in the original novel is black, although he is not subservient but rather heroic in defying his master. It has been used in a disparaging sense at least since the civil rights movement in the 1960s, and probably earlier. > [@](#): > > Cause, at the very least in British English, it can be used without any ref whatsoever to the target of the “insult” being black. The meaning in England then is quite different from what it has been historically in the US. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/36 "2011-09-12T03:52:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Just because something’s an insult doesn’t automatically make it hate speech. I would think in some rare cases one could use it against a non-black individuals, even. It was used by a black character against a white character in last week’s True Blood. Followed by “yeah, I went there.” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/37 "2011-09-12T03:54:08Z")
If “Uncle Tom” is OK, how about “House N----r”? Or “House Negro,” if that makes it easier to discuss? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/38 "2011-09-12T03:54:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I submit that the term as it’s used currently is 100% political in nature and we have to address this fact if we’re going to have any meaningful discussion as to why it’s used, what it means, and its intended impact upon the people to whom it’s aimed. I don’t think why it’s used or its political nature is relevant to whether or not it’s hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/39 "2011-09-12T04:11:57Z")
Okay, then. I’ll just go back to saying it’s a race-based insult targeting people of a certain race for defying race-based expectations. For that reason alone it seems to me that the term should qualify as hate speech. People should be free to follow their own path no matter what their race. Anything less is racism, and since “Uncle Tom” is used to condemn people not for what they believe but for believing it while black, I believe it constitutes racism as well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/40 "2011-09-12T04:17:07Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > If “Uncle Tom” is OK, how about “House N----r”? Or “House Negro,” if that makes it easier to discuss? Those phrases are modifiers for words that actually are sweeping derogations of an entire group. Is this really rocket science? People can’t figure out if they’re insulting a whole group or not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973.md?page=3)