# Is "Uncle Tom" Hate Speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973 "2011-09-11T20:41:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/61 "2011-09-12T08:27:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I will say that I think that "UNcle Tom can be just as hurtful. Especially when the guy has worked his ass off trying to get somewhere in life and has finally reached a position of respect and power within the power structure of society, as have Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, Condoleeza Rice, Allen West and Hermain Cain (to mention but a few), only to be labelled as Toms and dismissed by their own simply because to them the conservative view makes more sense. Frankly, though, I don’t think this is going to be a problem much longer anyway. More and more black people are getting into Republican politics all the time, as are Hispanics and women, and the more there are and the higher they rise, the more it puts the lie to the liberal deceit that minorities and women are not welcome in Republican politics, and eventually Tomism and other forms of liberal race and sex baiting will fade away and become little more than faintly remembered anachronisms. And when that glorious time comes, more and more blacks will start to throw off the shackles of the PC crowd and start voting for those black Republican candidates and office holders, and that will lead even more to run, and even more then to vote Republican, and even more to be elected, and before long we’ll have blacks and whites, voters and politicos alike, joining hands and working together to lead us into that bright, glorious Republican future where people are free… Ahem…I digress. Anyway, like I said, the day is coming when there will be so many blacks running for Republican political office, and so many blacks working for and voting for them and so many getting elected that accusations of Tomism will become utterly meaningless. So go ahead and throw your Tom accusations around now while you still can, but know your days are numbered. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/62 "2011-09-12T08:38:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But it’s an opinion based on race. Yes. And…? > [@](#): > > How are black people ever going to rise to positions of power and influence if every time they say or do something someone somewhere doesn’t like they’re going to get called Toms for it? Not true. I don’t like a lot of what Sharpton says but I’m not going to call him a Tom over it. Context. > [@](#): > > As long as white people make up the majority of the population, black people are not going to be as numerous in government as white people, and therefore there will never come a time when a black person couldn’t be accused of sucking up to white people because white people are going to predominate numerically. “Tom” =/= “sucking up to white people” for me. It is = “sucking up to White people who are actively working against Black interests” > [@](#): > > Racism won’t end until both sides start viewing black people as people instead of as black people. There’s nothing racist about acknowledging the social construct of race as ethnicity, and leveraging that for politcal ends that benefit the given ethnicity. > [@](#): > > If you don’t judge a man based on his actions and his character instead of what he ought to be doing because of his race, than you are being a racist whether you know it or not. No. Acknowledgement of the existence of socially-defined ethnicities as entities is not racism. > [@](#): > > Since when do racist remarks have to imply action against the target. This is a definition of racism I’ve never heard before. That wasn’t about racism, that was about hate speech. “I don’t like black people” is racist, not hate speech. “I hate niggers” is both. > [@](#): > > I have an aunt who’s 86 years old and uses the n-word to refer to black people. To her it’s just a word she grew up with and she means nothing by it :rolleyes: No, your aunt is a racist. > [@](#): > > , and especially not that she intends to take some sort of action against whoever she’s using the term to describe. But I’d bet dollars to donuts that if you heard her sitting in her living room, cheering on Emmitt Smith to win _Dancing With the Stars_ and happily proclaiming “I hope the n\*\*\*\*\* wins it”, that you would adjudge her comment not to be racist simply because no action toward Smith was implied. No, I’d \*definitely \*judge her as a racist. I would say it didn’t amount to _hate speech_ on her part. But only in context, and if she said that in a public space it’d be different, IMO > [@](#): > > Then again you are criticizing someone for doing a job you disapprove of and using their race as a basis for that criticism No, I’m not. Colin Powell, for instance, was not a Tom _because he was Black_, he was a Tom because he was willing to lie for his bosses. That is the “basis” for the criticism. His being Black is what makes him an “Uncle Tom” rather than a “Lord HawHaw” or whatever (not the best comparison, I know), but it’s not the _basis_ for the accusation. > [@](#): > > , and you are fostering the very racism you seek to eliminate by giving credence to **other racists** who would claim that “black people aren’t suited for jobs like that, even their own kind think so.” I could give a toss what justifications racist use for their opinions. And you just as good as called me a racist in that bolded bit, which I believe is out of line for GD. Please refrain. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/63 "2011-09-12T08:52:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But are you saying that if someone calls a person he’s in an argument with a “nigger”, that it’s automatically “hate speech”? I would say yes, for anyone older than teenaged. > [@](#): > > Why can’t it just be I guy who dislikes another guy and is intentionally trying to be hurtful? Because being hurtful _against a member of a protected class because of their membership of that class_ is one part of what hate speech _is_. > [@](#): > > I will say that I think that "UNcle Tom can be just as hurtful. I’m not denying it’s hurtful or insulting. It’s intended to be. But I think the perception you’re displaying here, is that hate speech must be, and always is, more insulting than an ordinary insult. That is \*not \*the case. > [@](#): > > A black man that is called that is hearing that he has turned on his people. Yep. > [@](#): > > That he is trying to ingratiate himself with his oppressors at the expense of his race. Yep. Or is just utterly misguided, that’s a possibility too. > [@](#): > > That’s pretty shitty. Especially since the guy should be able to use his mind and determine for himself the ideas that will guide his life. The issue isn’t what the guy chooses to do with his life, the issue is where his actions stand in relation to those of his community. Of course, if his defence is that he is an individual and not just a community representative, then the insult shouldn’t sting as much, should it? Cake and the eating thereof… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/64 "2011-09-12T08:59:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Especially when the guy has worked his ass off trying to get somewhere in life and has finally reached a position of respect and power within the power structure of society, as have Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, Condoleeza Rice, Allen West and Hermain Cain (to mention but a few), only to be labelled as Toms and dismissed by their own simply because to them the conservative view makes more sense. Well, that’s part of what the Tom accusation is, isn’t it? It’s saying “You’re wrong about this”. And it’s not “simply” or “the conservative view” - I wouldn’t have an issue with a conservative Black person, say a hardcore Libertarian - it’s specifically Republican Blacks who deserve the epithet > [@](#): > > Anyway, like I said, the day is coming when there will be so many blacks running for Republican political office, and so many blacks working for and voting for them and so many getting elected that accusations of Tomism will become utterly meaningless. So go ahead and throw your Tom accusations around now while you still can, but know your days are numbered. Hope springs eternal… …and then I look at the signs at TP rallies and their platforms. Sure the minorities are going to swing towards the RP in a big way. Suuuure. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/65 "2011-09-12T09:05:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I’d definitely judge her as a racist. I would say it didn’t amount to hate speech on her part. Well, you may differentiate between racist comments and hate speech, but on this board they are mostly considered one and the same. I don’t believe anyone could come on this board and speak the way she did without running afoul of the board’s prohibition against hate speech, and it’s hate speech as defined by the board that we are discussing here. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And you just as good as called me a racist in that bolded bit, which I believe is out of line for GD. Well, apart from the fact that this is ATMB :D, it wasn’t you I was thinking of when I said “other”. I was differentiating between those who use the “Uncle Tom” epithet, which I think of as racists, vs. the ones on the other side who would make the claim I described. I had forgotten for that moment that you had included yourself in the former group. So you may be right in a technical sense - and for that in this forum I apologize - but the slight was not intended. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/66 "2011-09-12T11:17:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > “Uncle Tom” is a racially based and motivated insult Actually, it should be banned because it’s an illiterate insult. If anyone reads the book, they’ll see that Uncle Tom is the hero. He regularly defies his masters (reading the bible to other slaves, not being willing to abandon his Christianity, and hell, he dies protecting the other slaves: he gets whipped to death rather than reveal their location to Simon Legree.\* The correct usage of the term should be “The average Samuel L. Jackson kick-ass hero is a real Uncle Tom” (yeah, linguistically, I’ve lost this battle, but still. 😉 ) \*Someone once explained to me that there were minstrel show versions that corrupted the story and that’s where the revised term came from. Nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/67 "2011-09-12T12:41:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So you’d be okay with it if white people started referring to aspiring black baseball players as “a bunch of Jackie Robinsons”? I don’t care what anybody calls anybody, but I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean or why it’s an insult. > [@](#): > > I mean, not every black person is a baseball player…so what’s the prob? Or referring to liberal college professors as “Cornel Wests”? Again, black liberal college professors are a subset of the black race, so again what’s the problem? Again, not seeing the insult here, nor am I seeing any analogy. “uncle Tom” isn’t used against any group at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/68 "2011-09-12T12:42:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sure I can: Black conservatives. What does “conservative” have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/69 "2011-09-12T14:20:36Z")
I just don’t hear the term used all that much anymore. Nothing like what I heard in the Fifties and Sixties. It was most often used by people of color to discourage those who “didn’t want to stir up trouble.” > [@](#): > > **Starving Artist** : How are black people ever going to rise to positions of power and influence if every time they say or do something someone somewhere doesn’t like they’re going to get called Toms for it? I don’t think I’ve ever heard the President called an Uncle Tom. I guess I’m missed out on some, but it’s not been a common thing. And I haven’t heard it ever about Colin Powell. Clarence Thomas? Position of respect? Have you been keeping up with him? > [@](#): > > If you don’t judge a man based on his actions and his character instead of what he ought to be doing because of his race, than you are being a racist whether you know it or not. In being discerning, I pretty much hold the same standard for every person regardless of her ethnic background. Oh, and men too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973/70 "2011-09-12T15:17:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Possibly. I don’t know if there’s an easy line to identify separating insults from hate speech. But I do see your point and wouldn’t argue to vehemently against it. But are you saying that if someone calls a person he’s in an argument with a “nigger”, that it’s automatically “hate speech”? Why can’t it just be I guy who dislikes another guy and is intentionally trying to be hurtful? From a personal standpoint, I don’t care which one it is. From a moderating standpoint, you’d get a warning for either one, so it really doesn’t matter. I usually use the “being a jerk” warning instead of the “hate speech” warning so I don’t have to listen to arguments about whether it was hateful or not and whether we should have hate speech rules or not. Even if we assume that only black conservatives are called Uncle Toms - which is not true - and imagine a hypothetical insult that only applied to black liberals, then black liberals might complain about that imaginary term, but that doesn’t mean we would moderate it as hate speech. With that, I’m going to close this thread. The discussion is going in circles and it seems to have turned into the exact conversatives-vs.-liberals argument I was talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-uncle-tom-hate-speech/595973.md?page=3)