# IS UPS Ground really ground? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822 "2009-12-11T03:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/21 "2009-12-11T22:50:10Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > I suspect something similar with UPS and FedEx. Ground and air packages share the same sorting facilities (it would be stupid to build separate facilities for ground vs. air.) I imagine that ground packages might be shipped in a plane if there was room for them and it would be cheaper and easier than getting a truck or van. Air hubs will also have truck connections but companies such as UPS and FedEx will have separate ground hubs independent of air. While you would think it makes sense to top off an airplane with ground freight it is an expensive habit to get into. It’s not the cost savings of the truck, but the excess cost of empty space on the plane. If it’s a consistent empty space then the aircraft or route is changed to better utilize the plane. The other problem with this is that ground freight moved on an aircraft shouldn’t be delivered next day or customers will quickly realize they don’t have to pay for air and will switch service. This is a very expensive lesson that all carriers have learned over time. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/22 "2009-12-11T22:52:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, I don’t think you understand. Looking at your own quote the best time for a train is 760 miles per day. That would mean 2.5 days of pure transit time from Chicago to PHX not including pickup, sorting, transfer,transit,transfer, and delivery. 3 day service pretty much depends on trucks with teams which can travel 1000 miles per day. When you go past 3-day ground then inter-modal would work but that is generally done with large shipments and not individually delivered freight. I’ve worked in the operations or route planning of air/truck freight for 26 years and have a fair idea of transit times. it’s ~1580 miles by what i estimate to be BNSF’s railway from Chicago to Phoenix You drop it off Monday. It will get there Thursday Monday night it’s already left the city on a train - 48 hours later (Wed PM) it’s in Arizona. I’ve had things overnighted to me that are 200+ miles away the night before they are to be delivered by noon - it’s only a 3hr truck drive in the middle of the night to get from the train depot to wherever they need to get in arizona Taking a look at UPSs ground map out of chicago, there must be some hub in arizona that allows them to get packages in that state in 3 days - closer states like New Mexico take 4 days by ground. Not saying you’re wrong or anything, but it doesn’t have to go by air. ---
**Author:** ![sco3tt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@sco3tt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sco3tt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/23 "2009-12-11T23:19:40Z")
> [@Otanx](#): > > This overview was given to us along with other random company info like why they paint all their trucks brown, and the official name of the specific brown they use. Okay, I’ll bite. Why do they, and what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/24 "2009-12-12T00:46:38Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > it’s ~1580 miles by what i estimate to be BNSF’s railway from Chicago to Phoenix They cut over 300 miles by rail (versus highways)? That seems like a high number since they go through a mountain range. How did you calculate that? I couldn’t find a good rail calculator on the web. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/25 "2009-12-12T03:49:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, I don’t think you understand. I understand perfectly. You said “Most of the cross country ground goes by truck.” I refuted that and claimed that most cross country ground goes by train. I haven’t seen anything from you that refutes my claim, I think a single rail carrier moving 50 million boxes during the holiday period for UPS is a good indication of how ground shipping is done these days. In fact you have it completely backwards-- shorthaul ground shipments (\<800-1000 miles) will generally go by truck, anything past that it’s more economical by train. > [@](#): > > Looking at your own quote the best time for a train is 760 miles per day. That would mean 2.5 days of pure transit time from Chicago to PHX not including pickup, sorting, transfer,transit,transfer, and delivery. 3 day service pretty much depends on trucks with teams which can travel 1000 miles per day. When you go past 3-day ground then inter-modal would work but that is generally done with large shipments and not individually delivered freight. I’ve worked in the operations or route planning of air/truck freight for 26 years and have a fair idea of transit times. There is nothing unreasonable about being able to make that distance on a train. BNSF is able to get a train from Chicago to Vernon in ~3 days and have the boxes our for delivery at the local hub by 0600 on Day 4. In any event, I don’t think UPS would make a habit of putting Orange on a train, I think they will find some space in a backhaul 2DA flight on day 1 or 2. Also note that there are only two days per week where a 3 day shipment is going to be constrained by time-- Monday and Tuesday shipments. They can lollygag all they like with shipments on any other day, since they get the 2 weekend days and those don’t count as in-transit days. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/26 "2009-12-12T03:55:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They cut over 300 miles by rail (versus highways)? That seems like a high number since they go through a mountain range. How did you calculate that? I couldn’t find a good rail calculator on the web. According to BNSF’s rail mileage calculator, it’s 1821 miles from Chicago to Phoenix. Union Pacific’s calculator says their route takes 1804 miles. By highway, it’s 1711 miles (per UPRR). [http://www.bnsf.com/bnsf.was6/RailMiles/RMCentralController](http://www.bnsf.com/bnsf.was6/RailMiles/RMCentralController) > **[UP Login](https://loginext.www.uprr.com/ulp/login/index.html?TYPE=100663297&REALMOID=06-3af6cd18-4597-0049-0000-636100006361&GUID=&SMAUTHREASON=0&METHOD=HEAD&SMAGENTNAME=-SM-5TB90wvJu4qjfjQs%2fqoo1cXK1jM1n3knsBUAmwG3mE88ojd5TE3oxv5EKJuQiv%2bu&TARGET=-SM-http%3a%2f%2fc02%2emy%2euprr%2ecom%2fmlg%2fmileagecalculator%2fmileage_query%2ejas)** ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/27 "2009-12-12T03:58:34Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I’ve had things overnighted to me that are 200+ miles away the night before they are to be delivered by noon - it’s only a 3hr truck drive in the middle of the night to get from the train depot to wherever they need to get in arizona heh heh Once upon a time, FedEx required that **all** next-day packages go through Memphis. So we shipped a letter overnight to a customer near downtown, about 15 miles from the office. It went to their facility at LAX, to Memphis, back to LAX, and then to local hub for delivery. Now they’ll just route it by truck to the appropriate local hub and save the hassle and time of sending it to Memphis. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/28 "2009-12-12T04:57:08Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > According to BNSF’s rail mileage calculator, it’s 1821 miles from Chicago to Phoenix. Union Pacific’s calculator says their route takes 1804 miles. By highway, it’s 1711 miles (per UPRR). > > [http://www.bnsf.com/bnsf.was6/RailMiles/RMCentralController](http://www.bnsf.com/bnsf.was6/RailMiles/RMCentralController) > [UP Login](http://c02.my.uprr.com/mlg/mileagecalculator/mileage_query.jas) Thanks, I was using Rand McNally for my figure. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/29 "2009-12-12T07:07:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They cut over 300 miles by rail (versus highways)? That seems like a high number since they go through a mountain range. How did you calculate that? I couldn’t find a good rail calculator on the web. i did a very crude google earth calculation - 2 or 300 miles isn’t really going to change the feasibility of transporting things transcontinentally by rail ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/30 "2009-12-12T11:53:51Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > i did a very crude google earth calculation - 2 or 300 miles isn’t really going to change the feasibility of transporting things transcontinentally by rail you’ve never had to decide whether to hold up a sort operation for a late truck. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mystick\_Phoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mystick\_Phoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mystick_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/31 "2009-12-12T19:01:09Z")
Background: worked for FedEx Express as a package handler for both the morning and evening sorts at a local station for 6 years starting in 2000. From what I know of the FedEx network, any FedEx Ground package is shipped primarily by truck. In those 6 years, I never once saw a Ground package get shipped in one of Express’ (air) containers. I can’t speak to packages being shipped by train, but if it was the quickest/cheapest way to get it to its destination, train will probably be used. Express, Ground, Custom Critical, Freight, etc all tended to operate as completely separate companies with a similar logo. This may have changed now, but I doubt it. I can confirm that if a package was being shipped across town it would be trucked on a regular delivery truck from station A to station B (without being put on a plane or sent to one of the 3 major hubs) where it would be delivered (most likely) the next day. Most packages do go through Memphis, but there are also large hubs in Oakland and Indianapolis. I can also confirm that if a package isn’t associated with a truck or container, the only time you’ll see updates to its location is when it gets an arrival scan. It is possible for a package to make it all the way through the network without being scanned (except on pickup where its destination address/routing is captured), but extremely unlikely. I believe the percentages we had to make every night as handlers was 99.25% of all packages that left our facility. Most nights we were above 99.8%. There’s your FedEx lesson for the day 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GythaOgg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@GythaOgg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GythaOgg)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/32 "2009-12-13T02:21:06Z")
My husband works in Revenue Accounting for the Union Pacific Railroad, so he is extremely familiar with who ships what on the railroad and what the requirements are. According to him, they have a huge contract with UPS to bulk-deliver container traffic from the Ports of Los Angeles to Chicago. The contract is very strict and has built in specific time requirements. These trains get top priority on the rails over all other traffic - ‘super expedited’, as he puts it. Other freight gets pulled off so the UPS rail deliveries can get through. And they make it through on time about 99% of the time; the UP is -very- good at this, as a good chunk of their revenue depends on it. He doesn’t know what the contract time specification is, though I did ask. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/33 "2009-12-13T06:36:38Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Not necessarily. UPS Ground is gauranteed within a certain time. If you’re shipping to the same state or nearby areas of surrounding states, it will be overnight. > > [This app from UPS](http://www.ups.com/maps) will show you a map of Ground shipping times from/to your location. But, there’s no service guarantee. If I ship a two day air package, it will get there in two days. If I ship by ground, there is no service guarantee except for UPS best effort. It might take a week, but it could take two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/34 "2009-12-13T06:41:01Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > But, there’s no service guarantee. If I ship a two day air package, it will get there in two days. If I ship by ground, there is no service guarantee except for UPS best effort. It might take a week, but it could take two weeks. Untrue, UPS has a service guarantee and I believe the maximum delivery timeframe is 5 business days in the CONUS. If they don’t deliver by the commitment, the shipper can get a refund of shipping charges. I believe FedEx offers the same commitment for ground service but don’t quote me because I don’t ship out with them very often. Note that UPS doesn’t extend this guarantee from December 11 to 24 for ground packages. Cite: [http://compass.ups.com/uploadedFiles/2009\_UPS\_PEAK\_SEASON.pdf](http://compass.ups.com/uploadedFiles/2009_UPS_PEAK_SEASON.pdf) (pdf) ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/35 "2009-12-13T06:55:52Z")
> [@Mystick\_Phoenix](#): > > Background: worked for FedEx Express as a package handler for both the morning and evening sorts at a local station for 6 years starting in 2000. > > From what I know of the FedEx network, any FedEx Ground package is shipped primarily by truck. In those 6 years, I never once saw a Ground package get shipped in one of Express’ (air) containers. I can’t speak to packages being shipped by train, but if it was the quickest/cheapest way to get it to its destination, train will probably be used. FedEx originally didn’t have ground operations. They bought Caliber systems and RPS, so it could be that FedEx ground had separate sorting facilities. But consider what that means. If a FedEx truck picks up a package for delivery, it might have to go to either the ground sorting facility or the air sorting facility. And, from each of these facilities, they’re trucked to regional facilities for more sorting and handling. Even worse, any package that is shipped to a destination that is with in 500 miles of a facility, it would be quicker and easier to bring it by truck rather than air. I take it that FedEx will (if it hasn’t already) start combining duplicate facilities and merging their operations. ---
**Author:** ![Mystick\_Phoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mystick\_Phoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mystick_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/36 "2009-12-14T04:58:20Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > But consider what that means. If a FedEx truck picks up a package for delivery, it might have to go to either the ground sorting facility or the air sorting facility. And, from each of these facilities, they’re trucked to regional facilities for more sorting and handling. Even worse, any package that is shipped to a destination that is with in 500 miles of a facility, it would be quicker and easier to bring it by truck rather than air. > > I take it that FedEx will (if it hasn’t already) start combining duplicate facilities and merging their operations. I never saw any indications that Ground would combine with Express, but I certainly won’t consider it out of the question. Also, when I worked for Express, the Express trucks would not pick up Ground packages and vice versa. They truly operate(d) like independent companies. I do believe, however, that if you go to a drop off location (Kinkos, an Express or Ground facility, etc), you can ship through either Express or Ground. The courier probably just treats it like another pickup on their route. The “life cycle” of a package is as follows (at least, this was what it was when I was a package handler in Denver, other places may vary): -Picked up by station-level trucks (the ones you see all over the place) -Taken to a local station. Denver, for instance, has 4 sort facilities if I remember correctly. -Package is sorted for its destination according to regional hub (oakland, indy, memphis). Each hub has its own set of containers at each station. -All containers are taken to the airport -Containers are loaded onto their respective aircraft. -At each hub, the process is reversed, all containers are broken down and packages are sorted by what plane they have to leave on and loaded back into containers. I’ve heard that this is a sorting operation to behold! -Containers fly back to the local airports and are distributed to local facilities by semi. -Each station then breaks down the containers and sorts them by delivery truck, drivers go out, and you get your package on time. This process takes ~12 hours or so. It’s efficient enough that you can ship a package at 6pm and have it arrive at its destination (for most destinations) by 8am (First Overnight priority). All packages that have a destination that’s within the local airports area of service are generally trucked to that specific station. Ex: package is picked up in Denver, CO, destination Boulder, CO. It never goes to the airport, it’s separated out at the Denver facility, put on a “shuttle” to the Boulder facility and arrives there either that evening or the next morning. Pretty amazing when you think about it… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/37 "2009-12-14T06:31:53Z")
Update: The packages arrived in Hodgkins 12 hours apart but arrived in Phoenix at the same time about 72 hours after the 2nd one arrived at the Hodgkins terminus ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822/38 "2009-12-14T15:31:02Z")
I get a lot of UPS packages, and they’re usually very reliable and the tracking works great. But every once in a while the tracking will get stalled and you won’t see much activity between the first entry and the delivered entry. And I’ve seen a few packages go way out of the way and bounce around from state to state, winding up 4 or 5 days late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ups-ground-really-ground/520822.md?page=1)