Is US ready for Democracy?

[Wake_up_call]

*Originally posted by errata *
**
How about France in Vietnam? Does Russia count as European? Does this really support your point about democracy anyway?

**

1- France was involved in colonialism of Vietnam prior to World War II. And boy, did France learn her lesson. No more invasion of another country “to liberate and change regime”.

2- Russia is only a dozen years old, and to my knowledge, they have not invaded another country during the past 12 years “to liberate and change regime”. Prior to 1991, Russia was part of the Soviet Empire, on an expansion binge. Is Russia a European country? I don’t know. They sure are not a member of NATO nor EU, and Siberia stretches all the way to the Far East.

3- My point about democracy were 2-fold. First, the fact that a Single Baath Party with 100% of the vote was not a democracy, but the Single Capitalist Party with over 90% of the vote is a democracy. Second, exactly what qualifies the US to bring democracy to Iraq?

**Well if you want to assert we have a 1 party system why do you care if tweedle-dum was selected over tweedle-dee?

**
You are right. Al Gore may not have been a puppet of PNAC, taking us to war in Iraq. But, then again, he would have probably been a puppet of some other group with ties to corporations other than oil, aerospace and construction sector.

**Hey, Nader got a few votes. It wasn’t 100%.

**
O.K. Unlike the Baath Party, the Capitalist Party did not quite make the 100%. But they must have gotten over 95% of the vote, because Nader did not quite make the 5% vote needed to qualify his party for campaign finance matching funds in 2004 elections.

**Look I think there are a lot of problems with capitalism, but you have to face the fact that people will vote for it. Now if you want to attack the reasons that people are capitalists then go ahead, but you don’t have to drag democracy into it.

**
Well, I am sorry to drag democracy into it. After all this is the land of the free. I am free to make a trip to Hawaii, right? However, I had to work like a slave for 30 years for various corporations to save enough money to exercise that freedom. And just when I thought I made it, Enrun took away most of my savings. The rest of my savings went to pay for major dental work which is not covered by any corporations’ dental insurance program. Now, what happened to my freedom to go to Hawaii?

** There was a good thread in here not too long ago about instituting multi-party democratic reforms in the US. There are positive approaches that can be taken to assure a more adequate representation of minority views. What reforms would you propose? **

Please start a new thread on this issue, and I’ll be delighted to participate.

[John_Mace]

Wake-up:

So, I guess we’re getting to the real issue here-- the fact that you had too many cavities to go to Hawaii. Ok, now I get it. I was really confused there for a minute.

[Ike_Witt]

*Originally posted by Wake up call *
**2- Russia is only a dozen years old, and to my knowledge, they have not invaded another country during the past 12 years “to liberate and change regime”. Prior to 1991, Russia was part of the Soviet Empire, on an expansion binge. Is Russia a European country? I don’t know. They sure are not a member of NATO nor EU, and Siberia stretches all the way to the Far East.
**

Have you ever read any history or anything at all? I think that Russians would be amazed to know that they have only been around since 1991. What was going on in that part of the world before the Reds won?

FTR - Russia, as they define themselves has been around since roughly the year 860, in various forms including the Soviet Union.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Wow, it an argument of labels, with the OP defining terms like “The Capitalist Party” and stubbornly sticking to them, even making up history to support them.

*Originally posted by Wake up call *
1- France was involved in colonialism of Vietnam prior to World War II. And boy, did France learn her lesson. No more invasion of another country “to liberate and change regime”.

The French tried to re-assert their control over Vietnam well after WW2, and only lost it for good at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. They continued to meddle in Algeria until 1962.

2- Russia is only a dozen years old, and to my knowledge, they have not invaded another country during the past 12 years “to liberate and change regime”. Prior to 1991, Russia was part of the Soviet Empire, on an expansion binge. Is Russia a European country? I don’t know. They sure are not a member of NATO nor EU, and Siberia stretches all the way to the Far East.

I’m pretty sure they called themselves the Soviet Union not the Soviet Empire, but in any even, Russia made up about 75% of USSR territory, contained about 75% of the USSR population and they certainly exerted strong centralized control over the other Republics. You’re pulling bullshit out of the air and calling it history.

3- My point about democracy were 2-fold. First, the fact that a Single Baath Party with 100% of the vote was not a democracy, but the Single Capitalist Party with over 90% of the vote is a democracy. Second, exactly what qualifies the US to bring democracy to Iraq?

Capitalizing a label doesn’t make it true, nor does repeating it. You haven’t proven the existence of your Single Capitalist Party.

Well, I am sorry to drag democracy into it. After all this is the land of the free. I am free to make a trip to Hawaii, right? However, I had to work like a slave for 30 years for various corporations to save enough money to exercise that freedom.

Worked like a slave, did you? How much cotton did you chop? How many barges did you tote? How many bales did you lift? If you worked for “various” corporations, I assume you were not owned (like a slave) or tied to a piece of land (like a serf). Were you traded back and forth like a property?

And just when I thought I made it, Enrun took away most of my savings. The rest of my savings went to pay for major dental work which is not covered by any corporations’ dental insurance program. Now, what happened to my freedom to go to Hawaii?

Having “most” of your savings invested in a single company was a bad idea and while the suits and Enron screwed you and should be punished for it, I don’t see how that means capitalism/democracy/The United States is a failure.

You just sound bitter. Maybe you could market yourself as a vinegar substitute and earn enough money to see Hawaii before you die.

[Soup_du_jour]

If 90% of the people are in favor of Capitalism, and The Capitalist Party[sup]TM[/sup] gets the vast majority of the vote, than it is Democracy.

What are your proposed alternatives to The Capitalist Party[sup]TM[/sup]? Should we go for The Fascist Party? The Communist Party? The Anarchist Party? The Monarchy Party? The Ba’ath Party? The reason that the two parties support capitalism is, surprise, because most of the public supports the system.

Besides, because two parties share views on important matters does not make the parties the same. I could just as easially say that the US is a single-party state that consistantly votes for The American Party[sup]TM[/sup] because the vast majority of the votes go towards parties that ostensibly have the interests of the nation at heart.

Also, why should you go to Hawaii for free? The poor workers for the airlines have to get their pay from somewhere, don’t they? God forbid we should Opress The Workers by not paying them anything.

[chigger]

quote:

3- Domestic choices, made by the selected politician in the US, are largely to pay back those who paid to get them “selected” at the first place. The politics of this country belongs to the corporations and the rich individuals. It has very little to do with ordinary citizens who are basically powerless.

The “corporations” and “rich individuals” exist because the “powerless” citizens CHOSE, and still choose, to buy their stuff. Capitalism indeed.

The sad aspect of this is that many people don’t see this relationship between choice and power, which is reason to be relieved that less than half the people vote.

But politics of any flavor is a form of capitalism in which power is the currency. If we erase the board and start all over with a “true democracy”, by its definition someone, specifically the minority electorate, will be rendered “powerless”.

Misery is a whore, another form of capitalism. Wallowing in her stench is one of life’s feeblest challenges. So is dreaming up Utopian forms of government. (I once had an acquaintance who insisted that anarchy would work “if it was done right”.)

The second dirty truth about the rich and the corporations is that they waste no time doing either of these. Whining about government or rich people and following up with idealistic quick-fixes doesn’t do nearly as much good as channeling that energy toward affecting change through one of the 50 or so political parties afoot. But be prepared for the more enterprising segment of society to exploit the choices made and we’ll be right back where we started.

[Wake_up_call]

*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers *
Capitalizing a label doesn’t make it true, nor does repeating it. You haven’t proven the existence of your Single Capitalist Party.

In a nutshell, the Capitalist Party is made up of two sub-parties called Republican and Democratic parties. These two wings of the Capitalist Party share some basic philosophies including the following:

• Take huge donations (sometimes called soft money) from corporations and rich individuals to select and present candidates for the voters to choose from.

• Since those candidates were selected and promoted by the Capitalist Party, their allegiances lie with the very Corporations and the rich individuals that put up the campaign financing money at the first place. Fuck the voter.

• Let both husband and wife work over 60 hours per week at $6.45 minimum wage. The Capitalist Party calls this “improving productivity”. 35 hour work week, livable wages, 6 weeks paid vacations per year and a transportable pension plan by the corporations for their employees? No way. Fuck the employees.

• Allocate $400 billion per year to defense, go invade third world countries and get the voter/employee to pay additional $100 billion war taxes for the benefit of the corporations. Healthcare plan for the citizens? Fuck them.

• Give carte blanche to corporations to “Downsize” at their whim with no accountability for the losses to the victims. So, the laid-off Joe has to sell his house at a loss and move elsewhere for another job. Tough shit.

The above are just a few of the platforms of the Capitalist Party. I am sure many dopers in this forum can cite more.

[Alien]

I hardly think you can say that America is not a democracy because there are only two big parties. People vote, and one, or both, of those two parties may be replaced by a new party. I’m not American and I’m not that acquainted with American history, but hasn’t that happened in the past?

The issue at hand is that the US (along with Britain and 2-3 other countries) has a an election system based on the concept of “the winner takes it all”. The downside of such a system is that there are almost always only two big parties fighting for power. Further more, the percentage of representatives given to a party may not mirror the actual number of votes the party received.

For instance, in Britain in the 1983 election, the conservatives got 63% of the representatives, but only 43.5 % of the vote. The liberals got only 3 (three!) % of the representatives, but 26% of the vote. Another example, in the 2002 election for Governor in Vermont, the Republicans got 41% of the vote, beating the “left” which got 47% of the vote (Dem: 32%, and Prog: 25%). Or for that matter, the 1992 US presidential election.

A side effect of the “winner takes it all” system is that in close races one might fight “dirty” by financially supporting a small party to the other side of the main opponent in order to split the opponent’s vote. As reported by the WP, such a tactic was attempted against the Democrats in two close races in New Mexico: “The chairman of the Republican Party of New Mexico said yesterday he was approached by a GOP figure who asked him to offer the state Green Party at least $100,000 to run candidates in two contested congressional districts in an effort to divide the Democratic vote.”

The upside of such a election system is stability, it’s either “this” or “that”, - and one of the parties will always be in majority.
Mainland Europe and the rest of the democratized world are using a proportional system, where each election district will hold multiple mandates as opposed to a single mandate. So, if the district has 10 mandates and a party gets 20% of the vote, this party gets 2 mandates.

To prevent the situation that a huge amount of very small parties could be represented, leading to chaos, there’s usually a cutoff point around 3-6%, meaning a party has to get 3-6% of the vote nationwide before they are eligble for mandates. It’s all very democratic. The downside is that these nations are usually run by coalitions, which sometimes leads to a higher degree of ineffectiveness.
(An interesting matter I’ve have taken notice of, which may or may not relate to the election systems, is that where the “winner takes it all” system is being used, there also seems to be a substantial, very poor lower class (US, UK), - but this could very well be the result of other things.)
Another major point is that the US don’t have, not to my knowledge, the concept of parliamentarianism, ie. the concept that the Parliament has the option of expressing that they do not any longer have confidence in a particular Secretary, or in the entire government. The Secretary (or government) then has to resign automatically. This keeps the government on a leash.
Since the “winner takes it all” system always favors the party in power, I don’t think there ever will be a change in the election system, neither in the US or in the UK. A better option would be to join one of the two parties in power, and work to change that party from within. It seems to me that both parties today are run by an ideologic base somewhat off from their average voter.
An interesting read is Thom Hartmann’s piece “How To Take Back America”, also a cite for a couple of things I mentioned above. He’s a lefty, but the article itself is a very interesting read.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0303/S00241.htm