# Is using a Real Doll (for sex) misogynist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223 "2009-09-15T20:35:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/1 "2009-09-15T20:35:23Z")
> **[Home](https://www.jezebel.com/)** > > Since 2007, Jezebel has been the Internet's most treasured source for everything celebrities, sex, and politics...with teeth. I’ve been reading about a new kind of sex doll. > [@](#): > > A German company called First Androids [NSFW] has created a sex doll that breathes and has a pulse. It’s just like a real woman, only with no brain or corresponding ability to reject douchebags. This breathes and so on. Okay, they skeeve me, I’ll admit, not because I think they’re sexist or demeaning but because I hate all things uncanny valley and this just comes too far…I hate dolls with their vacant eyes and…blech. Okay. I read some comments that were things like: > [@](#): > > But you know what? When your boring sex life directly victimizes and threatens me, then I care. And let’s not kid ourselves, that includes quite a bit of male sexuality. It’s not the fault of individual dudes, it’s the fault of the patriarchy that wants to keep women dehumanized so that those in power can keep us from getting any of our own. When sex–sex from women–is a commodity, then my body when I’m in public is property. I don’t have autonomy in a culture that encourages this. And as these robots get closer and closer to the real thing, only with an actual, total lack of autonomy, then the distinction gets even blurrier. I don’t see the real doll as threatening, though, any more than I would expect a guy to be threatened by a vibrator. Do you guys think it’s different? I think we have a tendency to see sex stuff targeted at guys as more inherently creepy (I think of all the peep show booths or of porn mags with dried semen on the pages or the stereotypical porn store) and stuff for women as more empowering (brightly lit clean stores like Babeland, nice attentive clerks, that sort of thing). Or maybe it’s just that women see real dolls as more threatening because of the whole necrophiliac angle? No one wants to think of themselves as a vacant, barely conscious, sex object. But I don’t think any normal guy would prefer sex with a doll to sex with a woman. Anyway, my own feelings on the matter is that it’s just kind of weird and odd, but not inherently harmful. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/2 "2009-09-15T20:43:51Z")
Foolish nonsense on behalf of the offenderati. The fact is that men don’t have any ‘cool’ sex toys. Women have stuff like the Hitachi Magic Wand, a toy that actually runs on wall current, or the Sybian, something with more horsepower than my car. Men have creepy stuff like the Fleshlight or the this doll thing. Ah well. For a women to feel threatened by either is… weird. Let men have some sort of sex toy for fuck’s sake (no pun intended). ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/3 "2009-09-15T20:54:50Z")
We’ve been working forever to make it “ok” for women to have toys, to educate men that a woman using a sex toy is not demeaning to his masculinity or any such thing, that not all women can orgasm from just intercourse. So now that the shoe’s on the other foot, we should be all creeped out? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/4 "2009-09-15T20:57:48Z")
Another ‘no’ vote. Some guy who, for all he tries, can never score with a woman, is supposed to deny himself this just to keep somebody happy who has no business in his sex life? Would they be happier if he hired a prostitute? Or is he just supposed to shrug and forget his sexual urges? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/5 "2009-09-15T20:59:55Z")
Is a woman using a dildo misandrist? Or whatever the word is? You can get a dildo that’s an exact replica of a man’s wang, with the wrinkles, veins, nuts, pubic hair and everything. If you use that, are you somehow committing an act of hatred against the male sex by reducing it to its genitals? (No, is the correct answer.) I don’t see how it’s any different from a Real Doll. Except for the fact that a Real Doll costs like six thousand dollars. A guy should be able to fuck actual women for that price. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/6 "2009-09-15T21:06:35Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I don’t see the real doll as threatening, though, any more than I would expect a guy to be threatened by a vibrator. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Or maybe it’s just that women see real dolls as more threatening because of the whole necrophiliac angle? If this new sex doll has a pulse and breathes, necrophilia seems right out. > [@](#): > > No one wants to think of themselves as a vacant, barely conscious, sex object. But I don’t think any normal guy would prefer sex with a doll to sex with a woman. I believe I’m a reasonably “normal” guy, and I would definitely prefer a real woman to a sex doll. But if it were my only choice? I’ve been in a relationship for twenty-four years. If tragedy happened and my wife died, I have a tough time imagining myself in the dating pool - I wasn’t any damn good at it when I was younger. So my sex life would be reduced to masturbation and I’d probably invest in a [Venus 2000](http://www.sybian.com/venus2000_details.html). I’ve been on their chat room, and half the owners are either widowers or injured vets and the other half are married men with a sex drive that exceeds their wife’s. > [@](#): > > Anyway, my own feelings on the matter is that it’s just kind of weird and odd, but not inherently harmful. Thoughts? I don’t see it as harmful in any way. I’ve known guys, perfectly nice guys, who are unable to have a relationship with a woman. Either being painfully shy, or having a disfiguring injury, they are never going to succeed in the dating pool no matter how hard they try. They need this. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/7 "2009-09-15T21:08:32Z")
Does the doll bleed? If not, forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/8 "2009-09-15T21:09:43Z")
Yeah. I mean, my “ew” reaction mostly is the uncanny valley. I’ve been known to shudder at mannequins and certain dolls. The thought of having sex with a doll makes me think, “It’s going to come to life like Chucky, GAH!” I don’t think these dolls are harmful to women. (They’re harmful to ANYONE because for the love of god, haven’t you people seen any Twilight Zone or Goosebumps episodes?!) Though I know men here have posted about vibrators and about their concerns that women will get too attached to them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/9 "2009-09-15T21:15:38Z")
Nope. It’s just a sex toy. As for this comment you quoted: > [@](#): > > And let’s not kid ourselves, that includes quite a bit of male sexuality. It’s not the fault of individual dudes, it’s the fault of the patriarchy that wants to keep women dehumanized so that those in power can keep us from getting any of our own. When sex–sex from women–is a commodity, then my body when I’m in public is property. First, a _ **Real Doll isn’t a woman** _. It’s treated as a commodity because it IS a commodity. And second, it’s at least as much due to women as it is due to any “patriarchy”\* that sex with women gets treated as a commodity. Women generally treat and have always treated sex with them as something that has to be earned; that is their right of course but by doing so they _ **make** _ it into a commodity. - There’s plenty of women in positions of power these days. Whatever else our country is, it’s not a “patriarchy”, even if it is still somewhat unfair to women sometimes. “Unfair to women” and “patriarchy” aren’t synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/10 "2009-09-15T21:15:49Z")
Real Dolls, though creepy (I’ve always been creeped out by dolls, even my own childhood ones), aren’t misogynist in themselves, but the sense of sexual entitlement that inspires men to think they “deserve” a real woman to fuck is. Get yourself a Fleshlight, a RealDoll, or a home-constructed plastic baggie thing, and save some real actual women some aggravation and annoyance. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/11 "2009-09-15T21:23:06Z")
I’m not one for adjectives like “misogynistic,” but – for reasons other than the garbled complaint excerpted by the OP – there are machtpolitik reasons women might not view this as a good development. I know a number of cynical guys who think sexbots would radically change society. Their view is **not** necessarily that sex is a commodity or that women are no more than a blow-up doll. They’d argue the contrary – they’d argue that an overt male urge to get some ends up distorting “the market,” and makes men do things that they wouldn’t otherwise, rationally, do, in the faint hope of scoring. They’d also argue that these evolutionarily-imposed pressures incentivize distorted female behavior, and anyone who’s dated a stripper (I haven’t, friends have) know that constant lustful adoration doesn’t always lead to the best character traits developing. To guys of this way of thinking, the sexbots would actually neutralize the market – guys wouldn’t try to impress women with fancy cars or big muscles, attractive girls would have to be as nice as fat chicks, and people overall could make better decisions without the blinding effect of male lust, the argument goes. Given that many of the guys I know who think like this are, if not misogynistic, at least misanthropic, I think that for some, the practical effect of availability of a “girlfriend experience” bot would be to drive demand for IRL girlfriends down, which lowers women’s options/pools if it happens. It’s kind of like: the whole romantic relationship/marriage thing was never as big an obsession for me, Mr. Surly Misanthrope, as for you, babe, but I was willing to accept it as part of a package deal, and now it looks like I may be able to order a la carte. So yeah, it’s not a great development for women if it ever achieves true cyborg realism. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/12 "2009-09-15T21:26:32Z")
> [@Telperien](#): > > Real Dolls, though creepy (I’ve always been creeped out by dolls, even my own childhood ones), aren’t misogynist in themselves, but the sense of sexual entitlement that inspires men to think they “deserve” a real woman to fuck is. Get yourself a Fleshlight, a RealDoll, or a home-constructed plastic baggie thing, and save some real actual women some aggravation and annoyance. Oh, I’m sorry, I guess I’ll just leave the real women for the real men. I guess I don’t really get the point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/13 "2009-09-15T21:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > “[Real Dolls founder Matt] McMullen believes that, for the most part, his dolls are therapeutic transitional objects for men” — just something to get them through a dry spell, before they resume human dating. That part’s a bit creepy (although I believe someone from that BBC doc about Real Dolls did just that – introduced a woman he was dating to his ‘stable’ of them). I’d be happier if guys who masturbate into these stayed out of the dating world all together. I don’t think these are the equivalent of vibrators or dildos, unless these men feel comfortable using them during sex with a partner, and unless someone’s selling vibrators attached to giant man dolls that I don’t know about it ([boyfriend pillows](http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/au0252.jpg) don’t count!). [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrvbj2aRT1I)a link to a doc on Real Dolls. Clearly there is more at work than just masturbation. And while some of these guys may consider women objects or an alien species, they mostly seem sad, and guys were chopping up prostitutes and committing necrophilia without these high-tech toys, thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/14 "2009-09-15T21:34:57Z")
Seriously, if anything men finding alternative outlets **de** commodifies women’s sexuality, and I’m not surprised some women find that frightening. Of course a lot of us may find it skeevy, but then we don’t have to utilize those outlets. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/15 "2009-09-15T21:38:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nope. It’s just a sex toy. As for this comment you quoted: > > First, a _ **Real Doll isn’t a woman** _. It’s treated as a commodity because it IS a commodity. And second, it’s at least as much due to women as it is due to any “patriarchy”\* that sex with women gets treated as a commodity. Women generally treat and have always treated sex with them as something that has to be earned; that is their right of course but by doing so they _ **make** _ it into a commodity. I think there will always be guys willing to do any number of things (lie, pay, etc.) for sex with a real woman over sex with a doll, though. Even the guys who don’t necessarily care about a woman’s feelings would probably rather have sex with something real than with plastic, however realistic. Of course, maybe I’m wrong and we’ll one day have super realistic cyborgs and guys would rather stay in and make out with their Monroe-bots (or their Lucy Liu-bots) than meet real women… ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/16 "2009-09-15T21:58:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I don’t see how it’s any different from a Real Doll. Except for the fact that a Real Doll costs like six thousand dollars. A guy should be able to fuck actual women for that price. Six thousand dollars a fuck (the real thing) = wow Six thousand dollars to “own” (for the real thing) = ewww Six thousand dollars o own a fuckbot = good investment long term I’ve been saying for years that once sexbots and cloning take hold women are going to be an endangered species unless they change their ways… Why do you think most aliens in sci-fi look like wimpy men? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/17 "2009-09-15T22:00:43Z")
Hmm… it’s kind of hard to tell from the photos. I’ll have to borrow the male one to be sure. 😃 (Actually, I think the male Real Dolls are more attractive than the male First Android.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/18 "2009-09-15T22:12:12Z")
A sex doll is more inherently creepy than a fuck toy that merely simulates genetalia (male or female), because it represents a whole person. The latter is merely an aid to masturbation: the former looks more like a replacement for human interaction - a person without the personality. The more accurately it simulates a person, the creepier it is - this one apparently breathes and stuff. :eek: Edit: to answer the OP - I don’t think it is “misogynist”. The creepy factor would be the same if it were a male doll for women. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/19 "2009-09-15T22:13:53Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Given that many of the guys I know who think like this are, if not misogynistic, at least misanthropic, I think that for some, the practical effect of availability of a “girlfriend experience” bot would be to drive demand for IRL girlfriends down, which lowers women’s options/pools if it happens. It’s kind of like: the whole romantic relationship/marriage thing was never as big an obsession for me, Mr. Surly Misanthrope, as for you, babe, but I was willing to accept it as part of a package deal, and now it looks like I may be able to order a la carte. > > So yeah, it’s not a great development for women if it ever achieves true cyborg realism. It would be a great equalizer. Females, for evolutionary reasons, have always had more bargaining power. A 9 month pregnancy is going to make females be pickier than men are when it comes to mates. Which means that women can demand more of men than men can demand of women. Look at how many “stay at home” jobless wives are married to rich sugar daddies, and compare that with the number of men who are in a similar arrangement with women. Look at peacocks and their big beautiful feathers. It’s only the males that have them (to impress the females). Female peahens are rather plain looking. They can just sit back and pick the male with the best feather display. For humans, money and social status are the equivalent of peacock feathers. It’s no wonder some women are scared by this new development. They’ll have to work much harder than they are now to find a good mate. The human race will probably go extinct if we invent holodecks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223/20 "2009-09-15T22:17:48Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It would be a great equalizer. > > Females, for evolutionary reasons, have always had more bargaining power. A 9 month pregnancy is going to make females be pickier than men are when it comes to mates. Which means that women can demand more of men than men can demand of women. Look at how many “stay at home” jobless wives are married to rich sugar daddies, and compare that with the number of men who are in a similar arrangement with women. > > Look at peacocks and their big beautiful feathers. It’s only the males that have them. Female peahens are rather plain looking. Like many male birds, they have to do an elaborate mating dance just to have a chance at mating. Peahens don’t have to compete for anything. They can just sit back and pick the male with the best feather display. For humans, money and social status are the equivalent of peacock feathers. > > It’s no wonder some women are scared by this new development. They’ll have to work much harder than they are now to find a good mate. The human race will probably go extinct if we invent holodecks. 😃 I honestly don’t think it will ever come to that: the greater part of the pleasure of sex is in giving pleasure to others - a sex doll could never simulate this unless it could pass a Turing Test, at which point it would have the capacity to turn guys down. 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-a-real-doll-for-sex-misogynist/510223.md?page=2)