# Is using "that" twice in a row "that that" poor grammar? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 4, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933 "2022-02-04T22:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/21 "2022-02-05T02:00:37Z")
I think that would depend on whether “I must go so that she may stay” or similar is ungrammatical. I suspect not. It’s possible my use of “so” isn’t actually replacing one of the "that"s in that sentence. I may just be adding a word and then eliding a “that.” Still, “gave their lives so that” sounds more normal to my ears. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/22 "2022-02-05T02:52:56Z")
Yes, that example is suppressing a “that.” “So that” is a phrase, and “that nation” is demonstrative of what nation. That example seems more problematic to me. If you read “so that” together, then nation stands alone without an article, which is odd. Reading the “that” as belonging to nation seems to put undue emphasis on _which_ nation. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/23 "2022-02-05T03:05:40Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Reading the “that” as belonging to nation seems to put undue emphasis on _which_ nation. I don’t see the problem with that. “That nation” is in the original, so Lincoln was himself putting emphasis on which nation. Otherwise he would have said “the nation” (or even “a nation,” to make it more general). I also note that, when you have have two "that"s together, you usually (if not always) deemphasize one of them and emphasize the other. I suspect that Lincoln most likely read that statement as “…gave their lives th’t _that_ nation may live…,” which still puts emphasis on the second “that.” ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/24 "2022-02-05T03:46:38Z")
Yes, I mentioned the emphasis on my earlier post. That’s why I said _undue_ emphasis. It reads differently to me with only one that. It sounds less like it is referring back to a nation already referenced, and more like, that nation as opposed to all other nations. Your mileage may vary. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/25 "2022-02-05T09:07:15Z")
We did this when I was in third grade, circa 1960. We had a poem to read, of which I only remember the ending. It was about a Christmas stocking, stuffed so full that a debate arose as to whether anything more could be put into it. A mouse came and chewed a little hole in the stocking, and then concluded:     I think you’ll agree     That _that_ little hole     Was not in there before! Mrs. Dalton pointed out to us 3rd-graders that the word “that” was there twice, which we might not have noticed, and that it was perfectly correct, and that we should put a bit more emphasis on the second “that”. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/26 "2022-02-05T12:12:22Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > In the style guide that I follow, one is not supposed to suppress “thats.” Same here. Even though English speakers tend to omit “that”, there are other languages that require “that”. So for translation purposes, it is much better to make sure that all “thats” are are included. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/27 "2022-02-05T12:38:31Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I occasionally find myself using “that” twice and it always feels wrong to me even though I’m hard pressed to find a better way to articulate it. It’s not poor grammar, but if you have a problem with it, then it’s poor writing. If the most obvious and concise phrasing sounds clunky or weird, you’re not obliged to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/28 "2022-02-05T14:38:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It may not be ungrammatical, but I do often try to change my wording when I notice it, to avoid confusion. For example, if I were composing something like that quote in the Gettysburg Address, I would have written “…gave their lives **so that** nation might live.” Heck, I might autocorrect it in my head and thus misquote it. @eschrodinger put things very well, but there is one other thing I’d like to bring up. Imagine that you’re addressing a group of people, many of which have done some deed worthy of praise. And many people in the group have been the recipients of some such action. If you’re not going to use names (and there are various reasons why you might not want to), then you need some other way of specifying a particular person. In the context of a speech, you’re probably not going to use any physical descriptors, such as what the person is wearing. Thus, the best way of distinguishing people is to use other descriptors, such as “that person” vs. “this person.” In addition, “that” can be used as an intensifier–putting the audience on notice that you are meaning one particular thing out of a group of things. Thus, you NEED two instances of _that_; the first one is in the phrase “so that,” and the second one is in the phrase “that person/nation/whatever.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/29 "2022-02-05T14:53:30Z")
I think that in the construction “so that that” being shortened to “so that”, it’s not the second “that” that’s being omitted; it’s the first. In English, “so” can be used in place of “so that”, as can be seen in a sentence with only one (or zero) “that”. “I gave my dog food so that he could eat” “I gave my dog food so he could eat”. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/30 "2022-02-05T18:00:15Z")
Yes, it’s common in everyday speech to suppress “thats.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/31 "2022-02-05T18:44:32Z")
There was a documentary about the making of the popular TV show _How It’s Made_, called How How It’s Made is Made. When it was released on DVD, there was also a small bonus featurette on the making of the documentary called How How How It’s Made is Made is Made (none of the above is true, however, if I had to create a title for this post, it might be How How How How it’s Made is Made is Made was Made) ---
**Author:** ![Limmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Limmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Limmin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/32 "2022-02-05T20:54:46Z")
Here’s something similar I remember from high school. It was given to me unpunctuated, and the class was supposed to put in commas and double quotes. > John, where Mary had had “had,” had had “had had.” “Had had” had had the Teacher’s approval. In its original, unpunctuated state, it was unbelievable: > John where Mary had had had had had had had had had had had the Teacher’s approval. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/33 "2022-02-05T21:01:57Z")
> [@Limmin](#): > > Here’s something similar I remember from high school. It was given to me unpunctuated, and the class was supposed to put in commas and double quotes. Damn. Beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/34 "2022-02-05T21:53:20Z")
John, where I had had “had” had “had had”. “Had had” had had the teacher’s approval. Ninjad. Damn. “That” is both a relative pronoun and a demonstrative. The relative usage is generally unstressed (and can often be omitted, although not always). The demonstrative usage is generally stressed. This isn’t the only example of part of speech being determined by patterns of stress. The following illustrative sentence is also literally true: “The brown BUILDING on the McGill campus is the BROWN building.” Actually the William M. Brown building and whoever specified a brown brick facade must have done it consciously. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2022, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/35 "2022-02-06T02:01:52Z")
There is also the do-do phenomenon: _You may not believe it, but I do do everything by the book._ mmm ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2022, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/36 "2022-02-06T02:08:29Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > You may not believe it, but I do do everything by the book. I, too, have a bathroom vanity drawer full of reading material. The shame. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/37 "2022-02-06T02:21:12Z")
The repeated use of “had” arises, in part, from there being two distinct meanings: It is a helper verb commonly used to create the past perfect of a verb; but it is also the plain-old past tense of “to have”. Nothing prevents these two uses from happening together, to produce all those “had had” sentences. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2022, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/38 "2022-02-06T06:31:28Z")
> [@solost](#): > > It reminds us of a punctuation puzzle popularized by _Flowers for Algernon_ , Daniel Keys’s 1966 science fiction novel, and _Charly_ , a 1968 movie based on it: > > _that that is is that that is not is not is that it it is_ Fuller version: that that is is that that is not is not that that is is not that that is not that that is not is not that that is is that not it it is ---
**Author:** ![Author\_Balk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Author\_Balk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Author_Balk)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2022, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/39 "2022-02-06T13:12:12Z")
There are at least a couple of verses in the KJV of the Bible with “for for”. Example: Romans 6:13. For for this cause pay ye tribute… NIV has it as: This is also why you pay taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933/40 "2022-02-06T15:43:49Z")
It’s a matter of taste perhaps, but I prefer: John, where Mary had had “had,” had had “had had;” “had had” had had the Teacher’s approval. It’s just as valid but now the repetitions occur in the middle of one sentence rather than at ends of two different ones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-using-that-twice-in-a-row-that-that-poor-grammar/958933.md?page=3)