# IS value imaginary **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055 "2019-07-14T04:55:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/41 "2019-07-17T01:23:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And sometimes you only think you need things when you don’t really need them. These days people often have a lot more than they need, not less. Yeah. The snowflakery of assuming that people “need” a lavishly equipped kitchen or home air-conditioning or even a car, all of which I’ve happily lived my entire middle-class American life without so far, is a bit jaw-dropping. Not saying you can’t have lots of kitchen equipment or air-conditioning or cars if you **want** them, of course, but it just underlines how subjective, and culturally conditioned, the notion of “need” is. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/42 "2019-07-17T01:44:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah. The snowflakery of assuming that people “need” a lavishly equipped kitchen or home air-conditioning or even a car, all of which I’ve happily lived my entire middle-class American life without so far, is a bit jaw-dropping. > > Not saying you can’t have lots of kitchen equipment or air-conditioning or cars if you **want** them, of course, but it just underlines how subjective, and culturally conditioned, the notion of “need” is. A snowflake does need A.C., tho. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/43 "2019-07-17T04:42:42Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > A snowflake does need A.C., tho. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/44 "2019-07-17T05:31:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Nor do I. In order for anything to be an illusion, it has to be an illusion _to_ something. To a consciousness. An illusion can’t be an illusion to a nonsentient piece of rock: the rock doesn’t perceive things. Anything the illusion can be an illusion _to_ has to be cognizant, conscious, aware. > > You could try to make the case that (for example) a computer’s hardware abstraction layer creates an illlusion to the operating system (so that it perceives any of a variety of different pieces of physical hardware as the same “ideal type”), but I would hold that in doing so you are either > > a) anthropomorphizing the operating system, because it does not literally perceive things; or > > b) arguing that the operating system _does_ perceive things, in which case you’re also arguing that the computer is conscious. > > Sooner or later we’ll reach b but for now I’d say a is the accurate descriptor. > > Anyway, the point stands. For something to be an illusion it has to be an illusion to something and that something has to be conscious in order to perceive illlusions. Hence consciousness itself can’t be an illusion. The person who proposed it was Susan Blackmoore, she has more stuff on it and she told me to check it out (not that I understand any of it really). ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/45 "2019-07-17T05:34:09Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If you think you already have a mechanistic/physiologic theory of Buddhism, then you’re done and there’s no need to struggle with questions that don’t lie within that theory. The thesis “nothing is worth it” becomes nothing more than a temporary regionalized starvation of oxygen. Nothing more to see here. You’ve reached the end. It’s more like the physiological explanation is more plausible given what we know now about our brain and bodies and what they didn’t know back then and likely attributed to other factors. I mean when meditation induces a feeling like “nonduality” of course you would end up with Koans and the like from that. But you are wrong about the “nothing is worth it” because that’s the same thing posed by nihilism, and I still haven’t sufficiently gotten past that. Saying something is worth it “because I say so” rings empty at the end and it’s like trying to get yourself to believe a lie that inevitably falls apart the more you try to patch it up. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/46 "2019-07-17T16:07:49Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But you are wrong about the “nothing is worth it” because that’s the same thing posed by nihilism, and I still haven’t sufficiently gotten past that. Saying something is worth it “because I say so” rings empty at the end and it’s like trying to get yourself to believe a lie that inevitably falls apart the more you try to patch it up. I would suggest that “because I say so” is an accurate statement of value as a function of demand. If I’m willing to trade an hour of work for a pound of flax, I am making a statement of value about those items. Outside of such an exchange, the concept of value is meaningless (or at least very difficult to talk about). Even if you consider something intangible like a beautiful sunset, it’s only valuable if I’m willing to walk up the hill to see it, because I decided it was worth it. If I share it with you, and you value it similarly, and many others as well, now it’s fair to opine to say we have discovered some value owing to the marvelousness of being. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/47 "2019-07-17T16:54:02Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Saying something is worth it “because I say so” rings empty at the end and it’s like trying to get yourself to believe a lie that inevitably falls apart the more you try to patch it up. Here is something for you to ponder: _not everyone is as depressed as you_. There are actually people who _like_ things. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/48 "2019-07-17T19:45:46Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Here is something for you to ponder: _not everyone is as depressed as you_. There are actually people who _like_ things. Yet there is something to be said about how what they say about value being imaginary, that it’s a made up measure of the worth of things. The ultimately nothing is “worth it” and that people think value to be real when it’s made up. It’s similar to the argument made by nihilism and it has nothing to do with depression but more like realizing that the value you take to be found is made up and not real. It’s a hard claim to overcome, at least for me personally. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/49 "2019-07-17T19:57:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If you are so inclined to read admittedly Buddhist publications, it may do you well to learn straight from the source. That means contacting your local temple, or at least checking out a translation of a major work from the library. > > The problem of non-existence is grappled with by the Bodhisattva Nagarjuna in the _Mūlamadhyamakakārikā_, especially chapter XVIII. I have been recommended Garfield’s translation published by the Oxford University Press, and pass this recommendation on to you. > > ~Max Oh no, he can’t do that. Last time he (allegedly) visited a Buddhist temple, they crippled his psyche so much he can’t stop obsessing about them. Sorry Max, we’ve been down this path with the OP before, and he turns down our suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/50 "2019-07-17T20:00:12Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Yet there is something to be said about how what they say about value being imaginary, that it’s a made up measure of the worth of things. The ultimately nothing is “worth it” and that people think value to be real when it’s made up. And my response to me is _so fucking what?_ Things that feel valuable to me still feel valuable to me no matter if that value can’t be objectively calculated. It is a pointless observation. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/51 "2019-07-17T23:19:03Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Yet there is something to be said about how what they say about value being imaginary, that it’s a made up measure of the worth of things. The ultimately nothing is “worth it” and that people think value to be real when it’s made up. It’s similar to the argument made by nihilism and it has nothing to do with depression but more like realizing that the value you take to be found is made up and not real. It’s a hard claim to overcome, at least for me personally. You should try reading Marx sometime. He spills several hundred pages of ink trying to provide a robust theory of the origins of value. It won’t give you the metaphysic definition you seek, but at least you can chew on some intellectual exploration of how value can be not-real yet also not-fabricated. Seriously, just haul out a dusty copy of _Capital_ and start at page 1. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/52 "2019-07-18T00:55:15Z")
**Machinaforce** , I’m going to cut to the heart of the matter for you. Buddhism is not a philosophy that answers all life’s questions for you. It is a philosophy to help you open your mind to the unanswerable questions of life. A question like “what is the sound of one hand clapping” has meaning only if you’re wiling to consider how one hand might clap and how it might sound. Similarly. “IS value imaginary?” only has meaning if you open your mind to what is “value,” what constitutes value, and whether those constituents even exist or are just constructs of our minds, not to mention whether they are subjective or objective. There is no “answer” to any of these questions, rather they open up an endless series of other questions that open an endless group of other questions. It may be fun to discuss this with your buddies or here on a message board, but eventually the discussion will exhaust itself. And, if you’re expecting either to give or receive a definitive answer, then you aren’t doing it right. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/53 "2019-07-18T01:17:19Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > There is no “answer” to any of these questions, rather they open up an endless series of other questions that open an endless group of other questions. It may be fun to discuss this with your buddies or here on a message board, but eventually the discussion will exhaust itself. And, if you’re expecting either to give or receive a definitive answer, then you aren’t doing it right. [Obligatory XKCD](https://xkcd.com/309/) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/54 "2019-07-18T01:39:08Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > **Machinaforce** , I’m going to cut to the heart of the matter for you. Buddhism is not a philosophy that answers all life’s questions for you. It is a philosophy to help you open your mind to the unanswerable questions of life. A question like “what is the sound of one hand clapping” has meaning only if you’re wiling to consider how one hand might clap and how it might sound. [Obligatory _Simpsons_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6YSfEKMeC8). ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/55 "2019-07-18T01:59:43Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > **Machinaforce** , I’m going to cut to the heart of the matter for you. Buddhism is not a philosophy that answers all life’s questions for you. It is a philosophy to help you open your mind to the unanswerable questions of life. A question like “what is the sound of one hand clapping” has meaning only if you’re wiling to consider how one hand might clap and how it might sound. > > Similarly. “IS value imaginary?” only has meaning if you open your mind to what is “value,” what constitutes value, and whether those constituents even exist or are just constructs of our minds, not to mention whether they are subjective or objective. > > There is no “answer” to any of these questions, rather they open up an endless series of other questions that open an endless group of other questions. It may be fun to discuss this with your buddies or here on a message board, but eventually the discussion will exhaust itself. And, if you’re expecting either to give or receive a definitive answer, then you aren’t doing it right. The question of what is the sound of one hand clapping has an answer, but it’s meant to reference nonduality which is what they talk about. One hand cannot clap and therefor no sound, which is the point. As for the second, it’s subjective, end of story. That’s kind of the problem because there is no objective measure “out there” of value and it’s determined by the subject. You are wrong to say that there is no answer to any of these questions, because there is. In fact in Zen students are expected to give an answer to the Koans, they aren’t just statements with no answers. The problem I have is that seeing value as imaginary robs meaning from the things I like and when you take out the value of everything and treat everything equally you don’t get “unconditional love” like they preach but indifference. It reminds me of what the Broward Meditation mentioned about living in a picture world of our own creation, which is the value we place on things based on experience. We love the image of what we have of things but not what they really are. It’s eerily similar to this mention from Buddhism and somewhat similar to nihilism. The worst part is that I can find some truth to it. I mean if I were to strip away the value I place or assign then everything would be equal, but I’m not sure that’s a way to live or if it’s possible. I mean the problem with a balanced scale is that neither side moves. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/56 "2019-07-18T06:11:36Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Obligatory _Simpsons_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6YSfEKMeC8). That’s actually wrong, Koans do have an answer and the student is expected to give one. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/57 "2019-07-18T17:12:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > [Obligatory XKCD](https://xkcd.com/309/) It’s not really the definition of value so much as it being arbitrary and not existing outside of us. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/58 "2019-07-19T15:29:37Z")
It mean as far as I know it’s right about this stuff just like nihilism is, that value doesn’t exist out there. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/59 "2019-07-19T19:03:32Z")
No shit, Dick Tracy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055/60 "2019-07-19T20:19:51Z")
So now that you have sufficiently proved to yourself that Buddhism is merely a servant of your own ego, **Machinaforce** , what do you plan to do? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-value-imaginary/837055.md?page=4)