# Is violence such as we have seen in Ferguson, MO ever appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579 "2014-11-25T08:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/21 "2014-11-25T13:22:11Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > Perhaps they feel like the police are sworn to protect them, but not the gangs? > 😕 I’m sure that’s the case, but why take a stand against one injustice and not the other? Why commit violent acts against police officers when you know their beholden to at least a degree of restraint and a rule of law. They’re afraid of cops shooting them down, but they’ll throw rocks at officers, breaking the cop car windows and over turn the vehicles? Again, I feel it’s easier thing to do. I think many in the community I’m referring to have either strong ties to gangs, or view the gangs as made up of members of their own community, so they look the other way when it comes to any criticism or actions toward them. Many times when someone is killed in a gang related shooting, in public no one comes forward. In fact, at a police protest someone in the crowd was shot in a drive-by and not a single person came forward as a witness or with any information. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/22 "2014-11-25T13:23:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, obviously. That you think I, or anyone else here, would think otherwise, says a great deal about you. And none of it complimentary. Of course. No one in any threads here has suggested that black people bring on disparate treatment because of their actions, or anything like that. No one at all has suggested that black people are intrinsically genetically more likely to be less intelligent or more aggressive. How could I ever think such a thing? > [@](#): > > The thing is, nothing about this case in Ferguson, or the rioting following it, has to do with any disparate treatment. Right. None of the protesters actually care about the disparate treatment – they just want to loot. That’s why only a tiny portion of the protesters are actually violent. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/23 "2014-11-25T13:27:51Z")
I too wonder what the protesters hope to accomplish. Is it to change the make up of the local police force? The easiest way to do that is to be in charge of the local government. If they want a change in local government, they should be out registering people to vote, finding and running candidates for mayor and city council, and planning get out the vote rallies for the next election. In Ferguson, this will be in about six months, early April next year. How senseless destruction of your neighbors property helps the situation is incomprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/24 "2014-11-25T13:31:06Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > In Cleveland, a 12 year old black kid was shot and killed by police at a _playground_ while playing with an airsoft gun. When my son was 12 he had an airsoft gun. I would hope _my_ community would have been outraged if he’d been killed for playing. That’s sad to hear. Even worse is that in some of the comments I read, they blame the boy and his parents for cultivating the “gang culture,” I’m assuming because the kid is black. [Cops shoot 17 year old white kid who was pointing a wii remote](http://kotaku.com/kid-shot-dead-by-cops-witnesses-say-he-was-holding-wii-1526375218) It’s not just black kids getting shot. That said I think in age of gun shooting massacres like that of Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, etc, and the prevalence of teenage gangs that murder people for wearing the wrong color, that people wouldn’t allow children to be playing with airsoft guns that look like the real thing. If I saw a teenager in my community walking around with what looked like a real rifle or hand gun, I’d call the cops too. That said, I think their should be a debate on police procedure when dealing with these situations. I understand that the police can’t put risk to themselves by waiting for a possible criminal to shoot them first. But I wonder, couldn’t they use a bullhorn and keep a very safe distance away from the child when arriving on the scene? ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/25 "2014-11-25T13:32:30Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I too wonder what the protesters hope to accomplish. Is it to change the make up of the local police force? The easiest way to do that is to be in charge of the local government. If they want a change in local government, they should be out registering people to vote, finding and running candidates for mayor and city council, and planning get out the vote rallies for the next election. In Ferguson, this will be in about six months, early April next year. How senseless destruction of your neighbors property helps the situation is incomprehensible. Exactly. And if you feel the police don’t represent you, why not join the police force to make a difference in your community, or at least encourage others to do so? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/26 "2014-11-25T13:33:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > More assignations of collective responsibility. The vast majority of black people, even poor black people, are peaceful and lawful. The black community is not responsible for the actions of a few black people. I can buy that. But if you follow that logic, there would be no protesting at all. On the other hand, if a community os going to take personal the ramifications that befall one individual—and act on it—then they need to justify their grievance and their actions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/27 "2014-11-25T13:39:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I can buy that. But if you follow that logic, there would be no protesting at all. I don’t see how this is the case. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if a community os going to take personal the ramifications that befall one individual—and act on it—then they need to justify their grievance and their actions. For the majority of protesters who have not engaged in anything violent or criminal, this certainly seems to be the case – they are protesting, among other things, disparate treatment of black people by the justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/28 "2014-11-25T13:47:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course. No one in any threads here has suggested that black people bring on disparate treatment because of their actions, or anything like that. If it’s brought on by their actions, it’s not disparate treatment, it’s treatment that is entirely fair. The police are not expected to treat someone who complies with their instructions, and someone who violently resists arrest, in the same fashion. > [@](#): > > No one at all has suggested that black people are intrinsically genetically more likely to be less intelligent or more aggressive. How could I ever think such a thing? I’m aware that those threads exist, but I’ve not participated in them. I’ve not seen any mention of such things in any thread to do with Ferguson, or any other thread in which I’ve debated with you. Come to think of it, there was one person arguing that in one of the Zimmerman threads, but he was fairly quickly banned. But it’s not been any part of the debates about either issue. > [@](#): > > Right. None of the protesters actually care about the disparate treatment – they just want to loot. That’s why only a tiny portion of the protesters are actually violent. What happened to Michael Brown has nothing to do with disparate treatment. There has been far more investigation into this than most other killings. What _should_ have happened, going by normal standards, is the prosecutor should have seen that there was insufficient evidence to get a conviction, and it should have stopped there. Due to the extremely strong feelings in the community, it was investigated extremely thoroughly, and the decision on whether to charge made by a neutral party. If anything, the treatment has disproportionately favoured the black community - and yet people are still protesting, and others are still rioting and looting. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/29 "2014-11-25T13:54:01Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Or are they ever justified in using their rage and frustrations through civil disobedience? [Civil Disobedience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience) is a specific term with a specific meaning. Rioting and burning the cars of random strangers has nothing whatsoever to do with Civil Disobedience, and it shits on the legacy of Ghandi and MLK to conflate them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/30 "2014-11-25T13:54:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If it’s brought on by their actions, it’s not disparate treatment, it’s treatment that is entirely fair. The police are not expected to treat someone who complies with their instructions, and someone who violently resists arrest, in the same fashion. The disparate treatment that’s most heavily protested, such as disproportionate convictions though innocent, is not “entirely fair” and is not due to their actions. > [@](#): > > If anything, the treatment has disproportionately favoured the black community - and yet people are still protesting, and others are still rioting and looting. Why is protesting objectionable? We seem to agree that there are disparities in sentencing and convictions of innocent men, though we disagree on other disparities. Isn’t protesting appropriate for such injustices? Rioting and looting are not, of course, but that’s just a small portion of the protests. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/31 "2014-11-25T13:56:59Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The events in Ferguson informed this thread but the question behind it is hardly specific to what has happened there. > > Throughout history, civil disobedience has always been one way - usually a last resort - if dealing with injustice, oppression and the continuing and unrelenting subjugation of civil rights. > > Despite the fact that [some conservative school boards](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/colorado-students-ap-us-history-protest) would like to wash away the role that “civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law” in High School history classes, anyone with even the tiniest interest in American history can point out how from the very inception of the country, when people who are considered Patriots rebelled against Britain rule, through slave riots, Vietnam and civil rights in the '60s and the Stonewall Riots for gay rights, violence and civil unrest has been a method used to instigate profound change, even as a last resort. > > And this says nothing of world history which is overflows for as long as we have records and even now where violent coups can change the government nations across the globe and not always for the worse. > > Two camps have appeared in light of the Ferguson rioting. One of them simply points to the protesters and says they are animals destroying their own communities, accomplishing nothing. > > The other camp - the one I am in - will respond that if all else failed, if the injustices never seem to end and nobody seems to be able to instigate change - what else is left? > > When a community - whether it’s the black community in Ferguson, Missouri or any other group that feels injustice - tries everything it can to peacefully make change and finds that the corruption is too much to overcome, the institutional racism too ingrained, the infringers too powerful to overthrow, are they supposed to just give up? Futilely continue to bang their collective heads against the same walls despite no reason to expect it do accomplish anything other than more lumps on their heads? > > Or are they ever justified in using their rage and frustrations through civil disobedience? > > I believe that history has shown us that sometimes they are because sometimes profound and positive changes have rose from the ashes of civil disobedience. This isn’t to say that will happen in Ferguson or that it even should, but I do think that merely wagging fingers of disapproval at those whose anger and frustrations have boiled over is a lot less likely to affect change than pelting the police with rocks. I’m confused. I’m not even following this story very closely, but from you’re OP it seems you do not understand what “Civil Disobedience” is. Is that what is happening in Ferguson? If so, why are you calling it “violence”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/32 "2014-11-25T14:00:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see how this is the case. Because the incident wouldn’t take on larger significance than what happened to one person, Michael Brown. And that would be judged narrowly, not broadly. Certainly not so broadly that entire communities in Ferguson and across the country would feel aggrieved. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For the majority of protesters who have not engaged in anything violent or criminal, this certainly seems to be the case – they are protesting, among other things, disparate treatment of black people by the justice system. And this points to the very dangers thing about mobs: the lack of individual accountability. I watched the activities last night, mostly on CNN and MSNBC. I saw a lot of thuggish behavior and very little “We shall overcome” type activity. Now, I’m positive that the thuggish behavior gets more camera time, but I have a few questions: 1. If you know, or have a pretty good expectation that a protest you will be involved in will be violent, and you still choose to be a part of the protest, do you bare any responsibility for the violence that occurs? 2. This is a bit uncomfortable to ask, but why does this type violence seem to come from one type of community—poor and black? Is coverage of all the other violent protests with looting and indiscriminate vandalism being suppressed some how? 3. Of the people that actually protesting last night ion Ferguson, what percent would you say displayed behavior that we should hold up as proper, and what percentage would you say we should point to and say is improper. And my question assumes that you would agree that any behavior that demonstrated looting, vandalism or other violence would clearly be characterized as improper. If I’m wrong about that, please explain. Personally, I have no feel for the percentages. But there seemed to be, in sheer numbers, an awful lot of people that were thuggish assholes. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/33 "2014-11-25T14:02:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He responded to being told to put his hands up by pulling a gun out of his waistband. The gun was not brightly colored like a toy gun and did not have an orange safety band like a toy gun. Anyone would be completely justified in shooting first in that situation. So, you’re cool with a 12 year old kid being gunned down on a playground while playing? Did you see the thug’s picture? [Seriously? Look at it. You happy he was gunned down for playing?](http://img2-3.timeinc.net/people/i/2014/news/141208/tamir-rice-435.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/34 "2014-11-25T14:10:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The disparate treatment that’s most heavily protested, such as disproportionate convictions though innocent, is not “entirely fair” and is not due to their actions. > > Why is protesting objectionable? We seem to agree that there are disparities in sentencing and convictions of innocent men, though we disagree on other disparities. Isn’t protesting appropriate for such injustices? Rioting and looting are not, of course, but that’s just a small portion of the protests. What disparity? Brown’s killing was investigated as thoroughly as possible, and he was judged not to have been murdered by a neutral party. And yet there are still protests because Wilson isn’t being tried. I don’t see the justification for any protest there - let alone the violence and looting that’s happening. It seems to me that the protesters are _calling for_ the sentencing and conviction of an innocent man, and I can’t for the life of me understand why you’re defending that. Honestly, the only reason I could see for doing so would be “because it’s happened to black people, it should happen to this white man”, and for all our disagreements I know you’re better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/35 "2014-11-25T14:10:33Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, you’re cool with a 12 year old kid being gunned down on a playground while playing? Did you see the thug’s picture? [Seriously? Look at it. You happy he was gunned down for playing?](http://img2-3.timeinc.net/people/i/2014/news/141208/tamir-rice-435.jpg) Who said anything about being happy? It’s an unfortunate situation, but the kid’s age and his baby face don’t change the fact that he responded to a legal command to put his hands up by drawing what looked for all the world to be like a live firearm, and had in fact deliberately been altered to look more realistic. Cops aren’t telepaths - if it _had_ been a real gun, and the kid’s intent had not been “playing”, neither of which they had any way of knowing, they could have been dead themselves in a matter of seconds unless they took action. The fact that it’s a tragic scenario doesn’t mean it isn’t justified. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/36 "2014-11-25T14:11:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > [Civil Disobedience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience) is a specific term with a specific meaning. > > Rioting and burning the cars of random strangers has nothing whatsoever to do with Civil Disobedience, and it shits on the legacy of Ghandi and MLK to conflate them. Civil disobedience also means accepting the punishment you receive for that disobedience, the point being to highlight the injustice. Basically the opposite of what is achieved by fighting the police. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/37 "2014-11-25T14:17:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who said anything about being happy? It’s an unfortunate situation, but the kid’s age and his baby face don’t change the fact that he responded to a legal command to put his hands up by drawing what looked for all the world to be like a live firearm, and had in fact deliberately been altered to look more realistic. Cops aren’t telepaths - if it _had_ been a real gun, and the kid’s intent had not been “playing”, neither of which they had any way of knowing, they could have been dead themselves in a matter of seconds unless they took action. The fact that it’s a tragic scenario doesn’t mean it isn’t justified. Dude, it was a _playground_. He was at the playground playing. He was twelve. Didn’t you play when you were twelve? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/38 "2014-11-25T14:26:10Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I seem to recall one of the big founding mythic events of your country’s foundation involved looting and destruction of property. So I’m not entirely sure you’re correct about the part I’ve bolded. Also [rioting, assaulting law enforcement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/39 "2014-11-25T14:32:27Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Dude, it was a _playground_. He was at the playground playing. He was twelve. Didn’t you play when you were twelve? Yes, but I didn’t point unlawfully altered replica firearms at people while doing so or reach for one when told to put my hands up, because I was taught that that’s a good way to get a real gun pointed at you. If a 12-year-old pointed a gun at you, would you wait until he started shooting to decide whether to be afraid or not? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/40 "2014-11-25T14:34:40Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Dude, it was a _playground_. He was at the playground playing. He was twelve. Didn’t you play when you were twelve? And the police just showed up and shot the kid because he was playing…is that what you are saying? It sounds like the picture you are trying to paint. Reading the account in the article…it’s a bit more complicated than that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=3)