# Is violence such as we have seen in Ferguson, MO ever appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579 "2014-11-25T08:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/61 "2014-11-25T16:53:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > These events are known as [‘Race Riots’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_United_States). It is a tradition in this country both as a means of oppression and the response to it. N.B.: In practically all American race riots prior to the 1960s, the rioters were whites trying to drive blacks or other nonwhites out of town. Often they succeeded – in the small towns; in the big cities, their victims found strength in numbers and they failed. You can read the story in [_Sundown Towns,_](http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416934358&sr=8-1&keywords=sundown+towns) by James Loewen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/62 "2014-11-25T16:55:21Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > iiiandyiiii, I get your bent on all of this, but at the same time, if you are a one trick pony and you can only see racism in everything, it diminishes your argument, just exactly the way it diminishes those who can never see racism. I’ll keep this in mind next time I see a one-trick pony. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/63 "2014-11-25T17:09:42Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > You aren’t addressing the problem at all: when told to raise his hands a person pulled a gun out that, for all intents and purposes, looked exactly like a real gun. > > You are contorting logic to suggest that the first thought going through the officer’s mind was “I better shoot this kid 'cause he’s black,” rather than “that gun looks real and there are lots of innocent people nearby.” > > You are assuming the worst, based on nothing, because you believe the officer was racist. You, in fact, are part of the problem as well. Actually, that would not be so very much of a contortion – because it is not a matter of “rather than,” it is a matter of “therefore”: If the first clause holds, an American police officer (white or black) apparently is likelier to infer the second than he would be if the kid holding the gunlike thing were white. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/64 "2014-11-25T17:09:33Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > When I was a kid, we could play with toy guns at playgrounds because little kids didn’t join gangs and shoot people. Things have dramatically changed since when I was little. You must be really, really old. Street gangs have been a thing for a hell of a long time. Crime is not up, contrary to popular belief. It’s down. Kids were joining gangs and shooting people in much higher numbers 30 or 40 years ago than they are today. Nonetheless, children not in gangs played with guns - hell, my friends and I in the 70s would literally play a game called “Guns” - and the police did not come shoot us. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/65 "2014-11-25T18:29:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What damage did the Boston Tea Party cause? Per your cite - to the tea, which was destroyed. A very famous story of an American traditional event, such that even I’ve heard of it - though granted I’m British. 😉 I note that you’ve left in the amount of damage caused in the cost of the day, but not the cost in today’s money, which your cite considers to have been more than $1,700,000. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/66 "2014-11-25T18:33:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Age and location is irrelevant - the gun looked real. > Should a bomb squad act as if a fake bomb is fake, when at first glance a fake bomb looks totally real? If a fake bomb doesn’t look real at first glance, it isn’t really a “fake bomb”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/67 "2014-11-25T20:15:20Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Per your cite - to the tea, which was destroyed. A very famous story of an American traditional event, such that even I’ve heard of it - though granted I’m British. 😉 > > I note that you’ve left in the amount of damage caused in the cost of the day, but not the cost in today’s money, which your cite considers to have been more than $1,700,000. I provided the link which allowed anyone to read the rest of the story, if they chose to. I was pointing out that the Sons of Liberty had only thrown East India Company property into the harbor. No damage to the ships, no injury to the ship’s crews or to the soldiers guarding the piers and ships, and they even swept the decks clean when they were done. A far cry from how the protestors in Ferguson acted. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/68 "2014-11-25T20:38:45Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > … and they even swept the decks clean when they were done. I submit the “protesters” were sweeping the fuck clean all the inventory on the shelves of the Walgreens and Ferguson Market… in the spirit of the Boston Tea Party, of course. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/69 "2014-11-25T20:39:31Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Heh. OK, I guess we’ll see if the playground is covered. When my son and his friends played airsoft in the woods behind the house, they all used sharpies to color the orange tips black. Looking back, I’m glad we are white. You are a complete fool if you allow your son to do this in an era of kids bringing guns into schools and causing mass shootings (I mean, what parent brags about their kid making his toy guy look more like a real one??), and even more of a fool if you think that your son being white somehow magically protects him from this sort of tragic mistake happening. Hope you never have to find out how stupid those actions are, for both your own and your kids sake. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/70 "2014-11-25T20:42:32Z")
Still waiting for the OP to come back and explain how all this is “Civil Disobedience”… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/71 "2014-11-25T20:46:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You are a complete fool if you allow your son to do this in an era of kids bringing guns into schools and causing mass shootings (I mean, what parent brags about their kid making his toy guy look more like a real one??), and even more of a fool if you think that your son being white somehow magically protects him from this sort of tragic mistake happening. Hope you never have to find out how stupid those actions are, for both your own and your kids sake. ☹ He’s 20 now, and no longer playing with guns. When he was 10 and had an airsoft he played in the woods behind the house, with other preteens. They had fun. The complainant in the Tamir Rice case said on the phone that he thought it was a kid, and he thought it was a toy gun. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/72 "2014-11-25T21:27:30Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > He’s 20 now, and no longer playing with guns. When he was 10 and had an airsoft he played in the woods behind the house, with other preteens. They had fun. > > The complainant in the Tamir Rice case said on the phone that he thought it was a kid, and he thought it was a toy gun. Even leaving aside the uncertainty today of thinking it was a toy gun (and as for being a kid, you realize that you don’t have to be that old to squeeze a trigger, yes?), you’d have to make the leap that someone conveyed this to the officer dispatched AND that said officer would just assume the info was correct…two very tenuous assumptions. It’s unwise to have your kid play with what looks like a real gun anywhere, regardless of your or your kids color…and wise to tell your kid that when the cops say to do something, they should probably do what’s asked of them in a polite manner, or at a minimum not suddenly reach for something that looks like a gun when the police have REAL guns with real bullets in them. YMMV, and glad your kid survived his childhood without having this happen to him. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/73 "2014-11-25T23:29:15Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, you’re cool with a 12 year old kid being gunned down on a playground while playing? Did you see the thug’s picture? [Seriously? Look at it. You happy he was gunned down for playing?](http://img2-3.timeinc.net/people/i/2014/news/141208/tamir-rice-435.jpg) If he was playing with what looked to observers like a potentially real and therefore potential deadly handgun, I am quite happy that the police (or anyone else) shot him rather than take the risk that the next time the handgun will be real and many more people die as a result. 12 years is old enough to know not to do utterly stupid things like a wave a toy gun around. Heck, the fact that it was a potentially a loaded handgun in the hands of 12 year old makes the situation all the more dangerous than a potential loaded handgun in the possession of an adult. Most 12 years have less maturity or comprehension of the finality of their actions. A 12 year old with a handgun is more likely to kill than an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/74 "2014-11-25T23:41:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I provided the link which allowed anyone to read the rest of the story, if they chose to. You did. You didn’t quote that part, though, while quoting the (necessarily much lower) past cost. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not accusing you of deliberately doing so, just pointing out that that could easily have given the wrong impression to someone skimming the thread who saw a $9000+ figure and thought “Hey, that wasn’t that much, then.” The cost in today’s money seems like an important point if we’re comparing the two events. > [@](#): > > I was pointing out that the Sons of Liberty had only thrown East India Company property into the harbor. No damage to the ships, no injury to the ship’s crews or to the soldiers guarding the piers and ships, and they even swept the decks clean when they were done. > > A far cry from how the protestors in Ferguson acted. No, it wasn’t. They looted and destroyed property - a rather significant cost of property, at that. You bring up the lack of injury to ship’s crews and soldiers; a very quick look (so please do tell me if I’m wrong) makes it seem like in Ferguson there were minor injuries, with none to cops. So no, I confess I don’t see it as a “far cry” between the two. Certainly not enough to declare that the protestors don’t share “traditional American values about law and order” as **PastTense** declared in the post I originally responded to. Deliberate destruction of property belonging to third parties in protest against authority? All the basics are there. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/75 "2014-11-26T00:15:44Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > You did. You didn’t quote that part, though, while quoting the (necessarily much lower) past cost. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not accusing you of deliberately doing so, just pointing out that that could easily have given the wrong impression to someone skimming the thread who saw a $9000+ figure and thought “Hey, that wasn’t that much, then.” The cost in today’s money seems like an important point if we’re comparing the two events. No, it wasn’t. They looted and destroyed property - a rather significant cost of property, at that. You bring up the lack of injury to ship’s crews and soldiers; a very quick look (so please do tell me if I’m wrong) makes it seem like in Ferguson there were minor injuries, with none to cops. > > So no, I confess I don’t see it as a “far cry” between the two. Certainly not enough to declare that the protestors don’t share “traditional American values about law and order” as **PastTense** declared in the post I originally responded to. Deliberate destruction of property belonging to third parties in protest against authority? All the basics are there. Yeesh. You’re really reaching here. The two incidents are parsecs apart. The Boston event was surgical. Get the tea and destroy it to make a point about, you know, the new tax on tea, and do not damage anything else. Ferguson was an indiscriminate opportunism. It wasn’t about making a point, it was about a dumb-fuck mob getting some shit for free. The only point that they managed to make is that they are lawless fuckheads who are on the wrong side of a jail cell door. There sense of law and order have nothing to do with the traditional American values of law and order you mention. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/76 "2014-11-26T00:23:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeesh. You’re really reaching here. The two incidents are parsecs apart. The Boston event was surgical. Get the tea and destroy it to make a point about, you know, the new tax on tea, and do not damage anything else. This seems to be an unbelievably rosy picture, accepting what likely amounted to political propaganda in a time in which there were no cameras and little in reliable journalism. The Boston Tea Party is a very interesting event in American history, but I think it’s highly doubtful that no one got hurt. > [@](#): > > Ferguson was an indiscriminate opportunism. Plus lots of legitimate and peaceful protests. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t about making a point, it was about a dumb-fuck mob getting some shit for free. For a small minority, sure. But most of the protesters wanted to peaceful make their voices heard. > [@](#): > > The only point that they managed to make is that they are lawless fuckheads who are on the wrong side of a jail cell door. There sense of law and order have nothing to do with the traditional American values of law and order you mention. Most of the protesters were peaceful and lawful. It’s a shame that some weren’t, and some took advantage of the situation to spread chaos, but that doesn’t mean that many/most of the protesters were not lawful and peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/77 "2014-11-26T00:25:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeesh. You’re really reaching here. The two incidents are parsecs apart. The Boston event was surgical. Get the tea and destroy it to make a point about, you know, the new tax on tea, and do not damage anything else. Ferguson was an indiscriminate opportunism. It wasn’t about making a point, it was about a dumb-fuck mob getting some shit for free. The only point that they managed to make is that they are lawless fuckheads who are on the wrong side of a jail cell door. There sense of law and order have nothing to do with the traditional American values of law and order you mention. … except for the looting and destruction of property of third parties in protest. So, you know, the “crime” part. I think your argument could lead to pointing out a big difference between the two events in terms of the _political_ values of the two groups, or the short-term/long-term effect separation. But law and order? No. The Boston Tea Party committers were also “lawless fuckheads who (were) on the wrong side of a jail cell door” - for the crime that they committed, and the laws that they deliberately broke. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/78 "2014-11-26T02:26:55Z")
Violence to punish the elites and their minions can work. It’s certainly more effective than slacktivism or writing a letter to your Congressman. But that would require attacking the city hall or where the white people live. Burning/looting your neighbor’s businesses doesn’t do much. They’re laughing at you now. Of course the problem is that even if you burn a bunch of white people’s stuff that probably won’t help your cause of more favorable police treatment in the near future, if anything the opposite. Probably feels better than a stupid hashtag or chanting a rhyme though. I think a bigger issue is the general perception that protests don’t do anything to modern states because the powerful can easily ignore them. The last time they seemed to do anything were the '60s. Violent or otherwise. At this point it seems like you need some Middle East style tactics that involve heavy ordinance. You’ve got their attention when you’re being waterboarded. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/79 "2014-11-26T02:32:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I am quite happy that the police (or anyone else) shot him rather than take the risk that the next time the handgun will be real and many more people die as a result. Sure, but if you meet the little boy’s parents, maybe just stick to, “I’m sorry for your loss.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/80 "2014-11-26T02:49:11Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > … except for the looting and destruction of property of third parties in protest. So, you know, the “crime” part. > > I think your argument could lead to pointing out a big difference between the two events in terms of the _political_ values of the two groups, or the short-term/long-term effect separation. But law and order? No. The Boston Tea Party committers were also “lawless fuckheads who (were) on the wrong side of a jail cell door” - for the crime that they committed, and the laws that they deliberately broke. It’s nonsensical, and reeks of desperation, to attempt to equate the two events. I’ve spelled out the reasons already. You ignore them and cling to tome false narrative that gives the thoughtless lawless fuckheads in Ferguson some degree of nobility. They have none. They are violent thieving opportunists who wanted to grab some free shit. Clinging to such nonsense you lose the argument. So we can now conclude that the Biston Tea Party has lead to two losses for you. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=5)