# Is violence such as we have seen in Ferguson, MO ever appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579 "2014-11-25T08:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/81 "2014-11-26T02:58:02Z")
I honestly agree with Revenant Threshold’s point, which had nothing to do with whether the folks in Ferguson who are rioting and looting/burning shit are noble or not noble, but since I’ve been booted from a thread already this week for hijacking I’ll leave it there. As for the OP, I don’t believe that violence is ever appropriate in this sort of situation, since it’s actually counter productive to the supposed aim of those protesting (of course, to those just looting and burning shit they don’t really have an aim, more just taking advantage of an opportunity). Protests in the 60’s were effective because for the most part they were non-violent and were able to capture the imagination and thinking of the majority of the population. This time what’s being underscored is the expected explosion and thuggery, and it’s not going to do shit to the popular image of this event and will actually detract from getting anything like justice. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/82 "2014-11-26T03:10:46Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > When I was a kid, we could play with toy guns at playgrounds because little kids didn’t join gangs and shoot people. Things have dramatically changed since when I was little. Did you point those toy guns at cops and in general make threatening gestures to other people? If not, then your experience is irrelevant to the story under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/83 "2014-11-26T03:46:27Z")
Bob is angry with Jim, so he goes and punches Alice in the face. At least, that’s about what it seems like there in Ferguson. Even assuming their gripe with the police is just, taking it out on innocent third parties is just plain bullshit, and a good way to alienate many people who might have otherwise been allies. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/84 "2014-11-26T04:00:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s nonsensical, and reeks of desperation, to attempt to equate the two events. I’ve spelled out the reasons already. You ignore them and cling to tome false narrative that gives the thoughtless lawless fuckheads in Ferguson some degree of nobility. They have none. They are violent thieving opportunists who wanted to grab some free shit. Clinging to such nonsense you lose the argument. So we can now conclude that the Biston Tea Party has lead to two losses for you. 🙂 I didn’t ignore your points - I accepted them, but pointed out that they didn’t really have much to do with law and order values, but other values. I’m not attempting to give the protestors in Ferguson who have committed crimes any degree of nobility. You really think that’s my intention? I guess I can see why you’d think that, but you have it the wrong way around; my intention is not to say “Look at these brave, noble protestors, standing up against wrong in the manner of your cherished Founding myths”, it was an attempt to point out that hey, traditionally people have been fuckheads who didn’t put much value into law and order, too, to borrow the phrasing. Effectively it’s not comparing Ferguson criminals to Boston Tea Party criminals to try and show the former as good, but the latter as bad. I see no nobility in looting and destruction of property, to be entirely clear. Anyone who does so should be arrested and put correctly through the justice system for their crimes. I’m afraid the reason you see my argument as nonsense is because it’s not the argument I’m making. So, what, 1-1 in extra time? Penalties? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/85 "2014-11-26T04:03:29Z")
The rioters and looters in Ferguson don’t seem to realize that they are living up to the very stereotypes they protest against. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/86 "2014-11-26T04:57:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > You did. You didn’t quote that part, though, while quoting the (necessarily much lower) past cost. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not accusing you of deliberately doing so, just pointing out that that could easily have given the wrong impression to someone skimming the thread who saw a $9000+ figure and thought “Hey, that wasn’t that much, then.” The cost in today’s money seems like an important point if we’re comparing the two events. No, it wasn’t. They looted and destroyed property - a rather significant cost of property, at that. You bring up the lack of injury to ship’s crews and soldiers; a very quick look (so please do tell me if I’m wrong) makes it seem like in Ferguson there were minor injuries, with none to cops. > > So no, I confess I don’t see it as a “far cry” between the two. Certainly not enough to declare that the protestors don’t share “traditional American values about law and order” as **PastTense** declared in the post I originally responded to. Deliberate destruction of property belonging to third parties in protest against authority? All the basics are there. OK, I now understand that you’re comparing only the cost of the damage to Ferguson to the cost of damage to the East India Company property. Both are significant. I’m comparing the actions of the protestors in Ferguson to the actions of the protestors in Boston Harbor. The Sons of Liberty marched to the ships, asked the guards to step aside, boarded the ships, threw the China tea overboard, prevented the personal theft of [E.I.Co](http://E.I.Co) property, swept the decks clean, and replaced the one lock that had been damaged. It was a very orderly protest, but what else should we expect from British subjects? 😃 When do you think the Ferguson protestors, rioters, looters, and arsonists will repair or replace the stolen property, burnt buildings and vehicles, and sweep the streets clean? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/87 "2014-11-26T05:05:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The rioters and looters in Ferguson don’t seem to realize that they are living up to the very stereotypes they protest against. That’ll teach 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/88 "2014-11-26T05:12:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Plus lots of legitimate and peaceful protests. There’s no way that any protests against the decision of the grand jury or the nature of the investigation are legitimate. At the absolute best, they are jumping on a tragedy to protest about something else, but more likely even the peaceful protesters want revenge, not any form of justice. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/89 "2014-11-26T05:46:56Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > my intention is not to say “Look at these brave, noble protestors, standing up against wrong in the manner of your cherished Founding myths”, it was an attempt to point out that hey, traditionally people have been fuckheads who didn’t put much value into law and order, too, to borrow the phrasing. Effectively it’s not comparing Ferguson criminals to Boston Tea Party criminals to try and show the former as good, but the latter as bad. Sorry, you’re still doing it. For some odd reason you feel a desire to draw equivalence between the two. And it is clear that you seek to have the nobility of the **principled actions** taken by men back in 1773 shared by the asshole thugs burning buildings and looting stores to get some free shit in Ferguson. We agree that both groups broke the law. That is where the similarity ends. One group did it surgically, making a specific principled point. The other group wanted some free vodka, malt liquor, cell phones and whatever else they could get their grubby hands on. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/90 "2014-11-26T06:05:38Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > He’s 20 now, and no longer playing with guns. When he was 10 and had an airsoft he played in the woods behind the house, with other preteens. They had fun. When you found out he’d coloured over the orange tip that clearly marks it as not being a real gun, what did you do? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/91 "2014-11-26T06:52:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > In Ferguson, people have chosen violence instead of voting, standing for office, joining the police force, or any other of the many options available to effect change. Violent protest - revolution, basically - can only be considered acceptable when there are no other options, and that by definition cannot be the case in a democracy. There was a review of the book “Ferguson in Black and White” written by a University professor who used to be a City Councillor. He detailed how African Americans in Ferguson were excluded from the Police, Government and other civic positions over decades by various means and how the black youth of Ferguson were chased into criminality by following up traffic tickets assiduously with the young black population, incarceratong them and destroying their career choices. He pointed out that the riots were not directly against a single case but against a racist city where 2/3 of the population was African American but less than 5% of the police department was. He compared the city government with St Louis where race issues had been much better handled. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/92 "2014-11-26T07:24:54Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I’ve seen quite a few African-Americans believe that cops in this country gun down unarmed people of their race on a regular basis with complete impunity. I think that people with that belief would disagree with their actions not being “proportional,” at least. (Whether any of them are the ones doing the looting is, of course, another question entirely. Which does bring up a good point: it’s really hard to tell motivations, especially when crowds tend to meld together.) My fault for not specifying the concept of [proportionality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_%28law%29#International_humanitarian_law) I’m pulling over from international laws of war. You used a different sense of the word that considers the force used to be in proportion to the force being used against them. > [@](#): > > The harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated by an attack on a military objective. The way I was modifying this for revolution was basically defining civilians as the innocent bystanders as opposed to the police and government forces that are the “combatants” in the oppression. Two armed conventional conflict hypothetical might help: - One uniformed enemy combatant is standing in the middle of a field with a pistol, 20 miles from any civilian. He starts shooting at an entire company of Abrams tanks at a range where he’s lucky to even get a hit. Proportionality would not limit all 14 tanks from firing their 120mm guns at him simultaneously with the an artillery strike. They can open a truckload of whoop ass cans and have it still be proportional since the risk to civilians is basically zero. - Drop an operating day care behind him and proportionality gets tricky. They have to balance the potentially very small advantage of engaging against the very big risks most of their means of engagement present to the people in the school. Your use of the word seemed to be more in line with calling the first example disproportional. The sense I was going for is the dilemma in the second example which calls for balancing advantage vs risk of collateral casualties. Since the rioters seems to be operating without a plan that offered much if any advantage to their cause, IMO almost any risk to bystanders makes it disproportional. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/93 "2014-11-26T12:08:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > When you found out he’d coloured over the orange tip that clearly marks it as not being a real gun, what did you do? I asked why, he explained that the orange looked stupid (he might have called it “gay”, that was a thing for a bit). I never considered it a problem, more a curiousity, since the kids were playing in the backyard and woods. My big concern was eye safety, since they were shooting at one another. I was seriously concerned about their eyes. The airsoft phase was short; the kids moved on to paintball. ETA: I think the “thing” the kids liked about the airsoft guns was how realistic they looked. And again, understand these were little kids playing in the backyard and surrounding woods of a nice neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/94 "2014-11-26T12:31:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no way that any protests against the decision of the grand jury or the nature of the investigation are legitimate. At the absolute best, they are jumping on a tragedy to protest about something else, but more likely even the peaceful protesters want revenge, not any form of justice. Right. People who are peaceful and lawful (like most of the protesters, excluding the violent opportunists among them who make up a small protion) can’t peacefully and lawfully disagree legitimately. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/95 "2014-11-26T12:32:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry, you’re still doing it. For some odd reason you feel a desire to draw equivalence between the two. And it is clear that you seek to have the nobility of the **principled actions** taken by men back in 1773 shared by the asshole thugs burning buildings and looting stores to get some free shit in Ferguson. We agree that both groups broke the law. That is where the similarity ends. One group did it surgically, making a specific principled point. Do you believe George Washington chopped down the cherry tree too? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/96 "2014-11-26T13:09:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’ll teach 'em. If they mimic Brown rather than learn from his example, we should react like Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/97 "2014-11-26T13:16:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right. People who are peaceful and lawful (like most of the protesters, excluding the violent opportunists among them who make up a small protion) can’t peacefully and lawfully disagree legitimately. In this particular case, that’s correct. If they claim that there’s something wrong with the grand jury’s decision, or the investigation that lead to it, they’re ignorant or lying. Neither is a reasonable basis for protest. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right, or sensible, or meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/98 "2014-11-26T13:26:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Neither is a reasonable basis for protest. What, because you say so? Even if the grand jury acted properly within the law, there still might be legitimate cause for disagreement – many of the protesters feel the law makes it too easy for a cop to lawfully shoot someone. According to the law, if I understand it correctly, after Brown fled from the physical altercation in the car, _even if he actually turned and tried to surrender_ (which is as consistent with the evidence as Wilson’s assertion that he turned to charge) Wilson was lawfully allowed to shoot him. That’s a legitimate point of disagreement on how the law should be. > [@](#): > > Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right, or sensible, or meaningful. This is exactly the principle that supports the legitimacy of some of the protests – Wilson might have legally shot Brown, but that doesn’t make it right or sensible. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/99 "2014-11-26T13:36:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s a legitimate point of disagreement on how the law should be. No, it isn’t. No-one should have to wait until they are injured to defend themselves. That’s really what this is about, though, isn’t it? Wilson wasn’t injured enough for the tastes of the people claiming he shouldn’t have defended himself. And those same people are the ones who call Wilson’s, and the law’s, supporters bloodthirsty… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/100 "2014-11-26T13:42:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t. No-one should have to wait until they are injured to defend themselves. But the specific point at which a shooting is legitimate – as soon as someone punches you and then runs away? If someone punches you, then runs, then turns back again? If someone punches you, then runs, then turns back again and raises his hands? If someone punches you, then runs, then turns back again and runs towards you? It’s legitimate to disagree on which of these points a shooting should be considered lawful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=6)