# Is violence such as we have seen in Ferguson, MO ever appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579 "2014-11-25T08:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/101 "2014-11-26T13:59:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But the specific point at which a shooting is legitimate – as soon as someone punches you and then runs away? If someone punches you, then runs, then turns back again? If someone punches you, then runs, then turns back again and raises his hands? If someone punches you, then runs, then turns back again and runs towards you? > > It’s legitimate to disagree on which of these points a shooting should be considered lawful. You are still missing the point. It is, and should be, legal to defend yourself before they punch you. Expecting people to receive beating is not legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/102 "2014-11-26T14:01:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You are still missing the point. It is, and should be, legal to defend yourself before they punch you. > > Expecting people to receive beating is not legitimate. That’s not a point I’m arguing with. The specifics of the law on whether someone’s fear of death and harm are legitimate are a reasonable point of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/103 "2014-11-26T14:10:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Large scale looting is pretty rare. But I don’t have any statistics handy on looting and race. While not statistics let me offer an example releveant to this point you were addressing which I requoted below. > [@](#): > > This is a bit uncomfortable to ask, but why does this type violence seem to come from one type of community—poor and black? Is coverage of all the other violent protests with looting and indiscriminate vandalism being suppressed some how? 1999 Seattle WTO protests. The organizations associated with protesting globalization aren’t typically poor and black. They were heavier on the vandalism than looting and it was more targeted instead of out of control. Most interesting is the common thread with Ferguson. A big name in Seattle, Lisa Fithian, is white …and was also involved in organizing before Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/104 "2014-11-26T14:14:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > OK, I now understand that you’re comparing only the cost of the damage to Ferguson to the cost of damage to the East India Company property. Both are significant. > > I’m comparing the actions of the protestors in Ferguson to the actions of the protestors in Boston Harbor. The Sons of Liberty marched to the ships, asked the guards to step aside, boarded the ships, threw the China tea overboard, prevented the personal theft of [E.I.Co](http://E.I.Co) property, swept the decks clean, and replaced the one lock that had been damaged. It was a very orderly protest, but what else should we expect from British subjects? 😃 > > When do you think the Ferguson protestors, rioters, looters, and arsonists will repair or replace the stolen property, burnt buildings and vehicles, and sweep the streets clean? Actually, I also pointed out the lack of injuries shared in both cases, though of course in Ferguson there were more, just nothing (so far, fingers crossed) significant. You’ve used protestors there; I hope that the mere protestors do not repair or replace the stolen property etc. given their lack of guilt. The rioters, looters, and arsonists, on the other hand, should, but of course I doubt they will. Just as the BTP guys didn’t. I don’t hold it in particularly high esteem that they replaced one broken lock when they also destroyed $1,700,000-odd of someone else’s property. Nor that they cleaned up, given the same. It shows the importance of the point beind made to them, but it doesn’t change the fact and nature of their crime, at least to me. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/105 "2014-11-26T14:21:10Z")
The Ferguson violence appears to be mindless, unfocused savagery. It’s a temper tantrum where the unhinged have guns and really stupid messages: “Black lives matter!” Let me shoot some guns recklessly to make this point. “Our communities matter!” Let me burn down some strip malls and torch some cars to show you how much they matter. Surely those who want real change for the black community have to be disappointed with the Ferguson violence. All it’s doing is creating a Hobson’s choice: More policing. And if that choice is left untaken, I pity the law-abiding residents of Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/106 "2014-11-26T14:24:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry, you’re still doing it. For some odd reason you feel a desire to draw equivalence between the two. And it is clear that you seek to have the nobility of the **principled actions** taken by men back in 1773 shared by the asshole thugs burning buildings and looting stores to get some free shit in Ferguson. But, as I’ve said, it’s entirely the other way around. I’m not covering the Ferguson protestors who committed crimes with the BTP guys; I’m covering the BTP guys with the reputation of the Ferguson protestors who committed crimes. I’ve explicitly denied that I believe those who have committed crimes are noble; allow me to do so again. They are not noble; they are criminals, who deserve to be put correctly through the justice system. Utterly un-noble, unless I suppose we’ve lent you some Lords for the occasion. > [@](#): > > We agree that both groups broke the law. That is where the similarity ends. I would say that the substantial cost of their actions (I don’t know the cost in Ferguson, but I would guess it to be high) is also a similarity. Other than that - yes, you are quite correct. As I have already agreed. Both groups are criminals who took and destroyed substantial property, illegally; that is the similarity. > [@](#): > > One group did it surgically, making a specific principled point. The other group wanted some free vodka, malt liquor, cell phones and whatever else they could get their grubby hands on. You’re correct. Again - as I have already agreed. But as it comes to law and order values, the point that I was originally replying to, these features do not apply. They show the difference in political goals, or in long term planning, or in focus. They do not show a difference in whether or not a crime took place, or whether or not the criminals in either situation deserve to meet justice. And they do not show a difference in law and order values. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/107 "2014-11-26T14:27:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not a point I’m arguing with. The specifics of the law on whether someone’s fear of death and harm are legitimate are a reasonable point of discussion. You think opposing the “reasonable person” standard is legitimate? What on earth would you think could replace it? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/108 "2014-11-26T14:35:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I asked why, he explained that the orange looked stupid (he might have called it “gay”, that was a thing for a bit). I never considered it a problem, more a curiousity, since the kids were playing in the backyard and woods. My big concern was eye safety, since they were shooting at one another. I was seriously concerned about their eyes. The airsoft phase was short; the kids moved on to paintball. > > ETA: I think the “thing” the kids liked about the airsoft guns was how realistic they looked. And again, understand these were little kids playing in the backyard and surrounding woods of a nice neighborhood. When people talk about white privilege, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing they mean. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/109 "2014-11-26T14:38:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You think opposing the “reasonable person” standard is legitimate? What on earth would you think could replace it? The definition and actual legal usage of the “Reasonable person” standard might indeed be a reasonable point of disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/110 "2014-11-26T15:14:44Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > When people talk about white privilege, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing they mean. Yeah, well, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/111 "2014-11-26T15:34:19Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > [QUOTE=magellan01] > Sorry, you’re still doing it. For some odd reason you feel a desire to draw equivalence between the two. And it is clear that you seek to have the nobility of the principled actions taken by men back in 1773 shared by the asshole thugs burning buildings and looting stores to get some free shit in Ferguson. But, as I’ve said, it’s entirely the other way around. I’m not covering the Ferguson protestors who committed crimes with the BTP guys; I’m covering the BTP guys with the reputation of the Ferguson protestors who committed crimes. I’ve explicitly denied that I believe those who have committed crimes are noble; allow me to do so again. They are not noble; they are criminals, who deserve to be put correctly through the justice system. Utterly un-noble, unless I suppose we’ve lent you some Lords for the occasion. [/QUOTE] You’re STILL doing it. As I said in my quote that you responded to, you’re attempting to draw an equivalence between the two groups. Regardless if you raise one group up or bring one group down, you’re trying to draw an equivalence. And WHY might you want to do that? Why look back over 200 years to the Boston Tea Party and compare the two? Because if you succeed in drawing some equivalence—bullshit as it is—either by raising up the thugs or lowering the BTPs, some of the righteousness, the nobility of the BTPs bleeds over to the lowlife, lawless, immoral, thieving, cocksucking violent thugs that you can watch on TV tonight. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I would say that the substantial cost of their actions (I don’t know the cost in Ferguson, but I would guess it to be high) is also a similarity. I don’t know the dollar figures involved, but between the businesses that were torched and vandalized, the cars that were torched, and the looting, the dollar cost of ferguson is not in the ballpark of the damage done by the BTPs. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Other than that - yes, you are quite correct. As I have already agreed. Both groups are criminals who took and destroyed substantial property, illegally; that is the similarity. I’d like proof of the amount of property damage being similar. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > You’re correct. Again - as I have already agreed. But as it comes to law and order values, the point that I was originally replying to, these features do not apply. They show the difference in political goals, or in long term planning, or in focus. They do not show a difference in whether or not a crime took place, or whether or not the criminals in either situation deserve to meet justice. And they do not show a difference in law and order values. You’re argument here boils down to “all crimes are equal, because they are all crimes”. But you’re biggest error is your astoundingly ridiculous claim that the two groups do not show a difference in law and order values. Reread what I and others wrote about how the BTP was carried out, the reason for it, and it’s surgical precision. Then turn on your TV and watch a bunch of lawless asshole thugs break into a liquor store so they can get their drink on. Aside from the fact that they both illegally damaged property that was no there, there as different as an apple and a vacuum cleaner. Please stop this utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/112 "2014-11-26T16:23:44Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Sure, but if you meet the little boy’s parents, maybe just stick to, “I’m sorry for your loss.” I simply wouldn’t comment on the situation unless pressed for an opinion. However, if the parents tried to sue the heroic individual that shot their incredibly stupid borderline criminal kid, I would be more than willing to donate money, sign petitions, and demonstrate in favor of the shooter. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/113 "2014-11-26T16:28:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe George Washington chopped down the cherry tree too? George Washington chopped down many trees during his lifetime. It was not an uncommon act during that time period. Clearing land for roads, buildings, and farmland. Felling trees for firewood, fences, and buildings. Maybe a cherry tree just blocked his view? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/114 "2014-11-26T16:29:37Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > George Washington chopped down many trees during his lifetime. It was not an uncommon act during that time period. Clearing land for roads, buildings, and farmland. Felling trees for firewood, fences, and buildings. Maybe a cherry tree just blocked his view? 😃 Right – because what I was referring to was general forestry and lumber activities of US Presidents, not a specific story in American mythology. Thank you for this useful post. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/115 "2014-11-26T16:42:51Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Actually, I also pointed out the lack of injuries shared in both cases, though of course in Ferguson there were more, just nothing (so far, fingers crossed) significant. > > You’ve used protestors there; I hope that the mere protestors do not repair or replace the stolen property etc. given their lack of guilt. The rioters, looters, and arsonists, on the other hand, should, but of course I doubt they will. Just as the BTP guys didn’t. I don’t hold it in particularly high esteem that they replaced one broken lock when they also destroyed $1,700,000-odd of someone else’s property. Nor that they cleaned up, given the same. It shows the importance of the point beind made to them, but it doesn’t change the fact and nature of their crime, at least to me. The British colonists had a grievance with loony King George, Parliament, and the East India Co. The colonists did not burn the ships. They did not burn the piers. They did not burn the wharf. They did not burn the warehouses. The colonists themselves prevented one of their own from stealing tea for his personal use. The only damage, outside of the tea and the boxes it came in, was one lock and the colonists made it a point to replace it. And they cleaned up after themselves. Their grievance was with the tea tax and the lack of representation in Parliament. The colonists weren’t so stupid as to destroy their own neighborhood to teach the government a lesson. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/116 "2014-11-26T16:44:06Z")
No. Never. Just my opinion. This says nothing about my views on the grand jury process or the police shootings of unarmed black youths. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/117 "2014-11-26T16:44:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – because what I was referring to was general forestry and lumber activities of US Presidents, not a specific story in American mythology. Thank you for this useful post. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/118 "2014-11-26T16:46:04Z")
I still don’t understand why, in the minds of rioters, an innocent store owner deserves to bear the brunt of rage over a shooting-by-cop incident. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/119 "2014-11-26T16:49:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I simply wouldn’t comment on the situation unless pressed for an opinion. However, if the parents tried to sue the heroic individual that shot their incredibly stupid borderline criminal kid, I would be more than willing to donate money, sign petitions, and demonstrate in favor of the shooter. Hey, I hear ya. Fuckin 12 year olds get away with too much shit, huh. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/120 "2014-11-26T16:55:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I still don’t understand why, in the minds of rioters, an innocent store owner deserves to bear the brunt of rage over a shooting-by-cop incident. Your lack of understanding is an important point, and we thank you for bringing this evidence to our attention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=7)