# Is violence such as we have seen in Ferguson, MO ever appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579 "2014-11-25T08:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/141 "2014-11-26T22:37:21Z")
[QUOTE=Namkcalb] American policemen have body armour and bulletproof car doors. [/QUOTE] Whoa…what cops are you familiar with? You think that most cops go around all the time wearing body armor (leaving aside the fact that body armor doesn’t cover anything more than your torso) and have bullet proof cars??? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/142 "2014-11-26T22:48:59Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Who opened fire first? If there was any uncertainty, the police should have just taken cover and pulled out their firearms until he opened fire. This encounter took place in a public park. You assume that “cover” was _available_ or that, if it was, that it would be reachable in the half-second or so it could take the subject to draw their weapon and begin firing. The real world is not an Xbox game where you can take three or four bullets to the chest and then heal up in five seconds as long as you duck behind a conveniently-placed concrete block. > [@](#): > > American policemen have body armour and bulletproof car doors. You assume that all police wear body armor all the time and always stand immediately next to their car while conducting business. > [@](#): > > Whatever happened to Serve and Protect? It was faithfully carried out when the police responded appropriately to a person brandishing a firearm in public. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/143 "2014-11-26T22:58:31Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If he was playing with what looked to observers like a potentially real and therefore potential deadly handgun, I am quite happy that the police (or anyone else) shot him rather than take the risk that the next time the handgun will be real and many more people die as a result. 12 years is old enough to know not to do utterly stupid things like a wave a toy gun around. Heck, the fact that it was a potentially a loaded handgun in the hands of 12 year old makes the situation all the more dangerous than a potential loaded handgun in the possession of an adult. Most 12 years have less maturity or comprehension of the finality of their actions. A 12 year old with a handgun is more likely to kill than an adult. Anecdote time ! Sit on unca’ Kobal’s knees and let him tell you a story. When I was 16 or 17, I saved a bit of cash and bought myself an AirSoft Beretta replica. It was awesome. I’d been wanting one for a very long time, and finally that baby was mine, all mine. So I got out of the store, sped to the nearest public bench, tore at the packaging, tossed that crap away in the nearest bin and started playing with my new Precious, right there in the street. Not shooting at things (I wasn’t a retard), just fiddling with all the moving parts and eyefucking it. Which just goes to show : nope, even 17 years old is demonstrably not old enough to know better than doing utterly stupid things like that. Now, since you don’t know me, a little more description is needed : I’ve always been kind of a “weird vibes kid”. Too tall, too skinny, gaunt face, unkempt hair down to here, eyes staring into nothing a lot of the time (because I’ve always got my mind on _something_)… I don’t recall whether I’d already adopted the slightly less colourful than Johnny Cash’s wardrobe I sport these days, but still, you get the picture. I looked, quite frankly, like Harris and Klebold - and this was around the time of Columbine, too ! Then a cop entered my happy-happy zoned-out little world where me and my new gun were having so much fun. Sternly so. He didn’t draw his own piece or even his baton, he just walked up to me, there in front of the gun store (in France, realistic toy guns and real guns are sold from the same stores) and asked me what the fuck I thought I was doing, pulling out a gun out in the bloody street. Startled, I stammered that it wasn’t a real one. He had a look at it, said OK, then told me to put in back in my pocket anyway and play with it at home because it scared people. I said OK. I hurried away. I went home. He never shot me. Not even the once ! Imagine that. [QUOTE=Morgenstern] The idiots protesters blocked a major freeway into San Diego this morning making hundreds if not thousands of people late for work, appointments, plane boarding, etc. Stuff like this makes me turn a deaf ear to any legitimate issue they are protesting. Somehow they believe that screwing innocent people is fair payback for their cause? Hardly. [/QUOTE] The point is that when protesters _don’t_ do that, nobody pays any attention to what is being protested and nobody gives a fuck. Inconveniencing people makes them give a fuck, even if said fuck is “somebody resolve this situation somehow or something !”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/144 "2014-11-26T23:00:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He never shot me. Not even the once ! > Imagine that. I wonder if that had something to do with the fact that you responded to his approach by talking to him instead of by silently reaching for your “weapon” as the child in the matter at hand did. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/145 "2014-11-26T23:04:55Z")
[The video](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2850234/Video-released-showing-police-shooting-Tamir-Rice-12-carrying-BB-gun.html) of the actual shooting of the 12 year old has been released. It’s sucky all around. Sucky for the kid. Sucky for the family. Sucky for the cops. The gun looks real. It happened very fast. It looks like the kid was drawing his weapon on the police. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/146 "2014-11-26T23:19:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > This encounter took place in a public park. You assume that “cover” was _available_ or that, if it was, that it would be reachable in the half-second or so it could take the subject to draw their weapon and begin firing _snip_ > You assume that all police wear body armor all the time and always stand immediately next to their car while conducting business. They were already informed that a child was messing round with what could have been a real firearm. Why wouldn’t they be wearing armour in situations like this? They should have drove up to the suspect, and armoured doors are the rule rather than the exception. Shesh, it would have been more appropriate to call a SWAT team… I’m assuming other children were in the park and beat cops aren’t known for their accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/147 "2014-11-26T23:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=Namkcalb] They were already informed that a child was messing round with what could have been a real firearm. [/QUOTE] Um, because they were probably just patrol officers responding to a call, not a SWAT team poised to go into combat? > [@](#): > > They should have drove up to the suspect, and armoured doors are the rule rather than the exception. Do you have a cite that armored doors are the rule in US police forces rather than the exception? I can tell you that the doors of our police here aren’t generally armored. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/148 "2014-11-26T23:25:07Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > They were already informed that a child was messing round with what could have been a real firearm. > Why wouldn’t they be wearing armour in situations like this? Because “There’s an armed suspect brandishing his weapon at random civilians, we’d better drive back to the precinct and change clothes” isn’t a rational or sane response in any way, shape, or form? ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/149 "2014-11-27T00:01:31Z")
Remember [a few weeks ago](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/30/san-francisco-giants-riots_n_6079240.html?utm_hp_ref=tw), when violence erupted in a major US city, with fires being set all over, with windows broken on five police vehicles, four more sprayed with graffiti? A man was stabbed multiple times, and police arrested 40 people? I’m sure such a situation required a lot of media coverage and multiple threads here condemning and discussing it, right? To answer the question posed by the OP, there is only one situation where we seem to currently consider such behavior appropriate: the local team must have won some sort of sporting event recently. Then it’s all okay; no one posts threads like this claiming that such civil disorder is condemnable and the media barely mentions it. … To say nothing of the [2011 Vancouver Stanley Cup riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Vancouver_Stanley_Cup_riot). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/150 "2014-11-27T01:57:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He responded to being told to put his hands up by pulling a gun out of his waistband. The gun was not brightly colored like a toy gun and did not have an orange safety band like a toy gun. Anyone would be completely justified in shooting first in that situation. Ohio is an open carry state. It is perfectly legal for someone to walk around with a gun. Watch the [video](http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html) of the shooting. The cops shoot pretty much instantly upon arrival after several boring minutes of nobody being threatened by the kid - he’s alone for most of the clip leading up to the arrival of the police car. Now contrast it with what the [Cleveland Police clarified](http://ohioccw.org/files/OFCC-14-117-OPEN-CARRY-OF-FIREARMS-IN-PUBLIC.pdf) about the state’s open carry laws and how officers should handle people openly carrying weapons earlier this year: > [@](#): > > When an officer encounters a person openly carrying a firearm, and no other criminal activity is observed or suspected, the officer may ask the person questions in a casual manner. Ensure the encounter is obviously consensual by informing the person they are free to leave and officers are not positioned in a manner that blocks the person’s path. Citizens may ignore requests for information during a consensual encounter (i.e. they do not have to answer any questions). So I assume that you would feel the shooting was justified if it was a bigger adult with a real gun despite the fact that it flies in the face of how cops were told to treat people with guns? And despite what many open carry advocates say is their constitutional right? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/151 "2014-11-27T02:30:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How would they know that? Presumably Louis Head, Michael Brown’s stepfather, is a resident of Ferguson, and the local police are aware of his identity. He hasn’t been arrested for incitement to riot, even though his actions were caught on video. > **['Burn this b---- down!' Michael Brown's stepfather criticized for reaction to...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-brown-stepfather-burn-this-down-ferguson-video-182317962.html)** > > Michael Brown's stepfather is being criticized for inflammatory comments he made to a crowd of protesters shortly after learning of the grand jury's decision not to indict Ferguson, Mo., police officer Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of his... So there’s at least some Ferguson residents who aren’t being arrested for crime(s) committed. IMO, there’s probably more. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/152 "2014-11-30T08:12:54Z")
Rioting and less direct forms of civil disobedience has a rich history in this country of successfully prodding change, especially for those with little to no institutional power. I think one of the main issues at hand is whether one thinks that they were somehow less violent or more focused in the “olden days.” And perhaps whether one believes that agents provocateurs are a conspiracy theory or not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/153 "2014-11-30T20:14:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > [Civil Disobedience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience) is a specific term with a specific meaning. > > Rioting and burning the cars of random strangers has nothing whatsoever to do with Civil Disobedience, and it shits on the legacy of Ghandi and MLK to conflate them. > [@](#): > > A controversial issue in debates on civil disobedience is non-violence. Like publicity, non-violence is said to diminish the negative effects of breaching the law. Some theorists go further and say that civil disobedience is, by definition, non-violent. According to Rawls, violent acts likely to injure are incompatible with civil disobedience as a mode of address. ‘Indeed’, says Rawls, ‘any interference with the civil liberties of others tends to obscure the civilly disobedient quality of one’s act.’(Rawls, 1971, 366). > > Even though paradigmatic disobedients like Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr embody Rawls’s image of non-violent direct action, opponents of Rawls’s view have challenged the centrality of non-violence for civil disobedience on several fronts. First, there is the problem of specifying an appropriate notion of violence. It is unclear, for example, whether violence to self, violence to property, or minor violence against others (such as a vicious pinch) should be included in a conception of the relevant kinds of violence. If the significant criterion for a commonsense notion of a violent act is a likelihood of causing injury, however minor, then these kinds of acts count as acts of violence (See Morreall, 1991). Second, non-violent acts or legal acts sometimes cause more harm to others than do violent acts (Raz, 1979, 267). A legal strike by ambulance workers may well have much more severe consequences than minor acts of vandalism. Third, violence, depending on its form, does not necessarily obscure the communicative quality of a disobedient’s action as Rawls and Peter Singer suggests it does (Singer, 1973, 86). Limited violence used to achieve a specific objective might heighten the communicative quality of the act by drawing greater attention to the dissenter’s cause and by emphasising her seriousness and frustration. > > [Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/civil-disobedience/) So there’s not a hard and fast rule that Civil Disobedience has to be nonviolent. Hope that limits the semantic battle that you and **John Mace** seem to want to start. And before you start to quantify Ferguson specifically, please note that I used that city as an example of a bigger question, not the only example. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/154 "2014-11-30T20:24:54Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So there’s not a hard and fast rule that Civil Disobedience has to be nonviolent. Hope that limits the semantic battle that you and **John Mace** seem to want to start. > > And before you start to quantify Ferguson specifically, please note that I used that city as an example of a bigger question, not the only example. Oh, please. You screwed up your OP by claiming that senseless rioting was a form of Civil Disobedience. If you don’t want to continue a debate about the mistakes you make, then admit you made a mistake and move on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/155 "2014-11-30T20:34:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, please. You screwed up your OP by claiming that senseless rioting was a form of Civil Disobedience. If you don’t want to continue a debate about the mistakes you make, then admit you made a mistake and move on. You’re wrong, but hey, repeat it, maybe that’ll help. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/156 "2014-11-30T22:06:21Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I too wonder what the protesters hope to accomplish. Is it to change the make up of the local police force? The easiest way to do that is to be in charge of the local government … How senseless destruction of your neighbors property helps the situation is incomprehensible. Hopefully this will make it a bit more comprehensible for you… > [@](#): > > [Ferguson mayor James Knowles] also said the city would be **looking into actively recruiting minority candidates for their police academy** in light of the shooting … The U.S. Justice Department also is conducting a civil rights investigation into the shooting and a separate investigation of police department practices. > [Ferguson mayor says Darren Wilson not asked to resign | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ferguson-mayor-says-darren-wilson-not-asked-to-resign-1.2855133) Does anyone seriously believe that without the national spotlight created by the protests that any of these initiatives would have happened? That it would not have been simply just another police shooting of the 400 to as many as 1000 that occur every year in America? ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/157 "2014-12-01T00:42:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Hopefully this will make it a bit more comprehensible for you… > > Does anyone seriously believe that without the national spotlight created by the protests that any of these initiatives would have happened? That it would not have been simply just another police shooting of the 400 to as many as 1000 that occur every year in America? So the ends justify the means? What does “actively recruiting minority candidates” mean? What does it entail? Is it just lip service? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/158 "2014-12-01T16:11:27Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > So the ends justify the means? What does “actively recruiting minority candidates” mean? What does it entail? Is it just lip service? The previous poster seemed to think it was incomprehensible that the protestors thought they could change the makeup of the police service. I pointed out that they succeeded in getting just such a policy statement made by the mayor of Ferguson. I have no idea if the mayor is sincere or what the outcome will be, but awareness and an open admission that a mostly white police force in a largely black community is not a good idea sounds like a constructive first step. As for the end justifying the means, protests are a constitutional right that don’t require justification. The violent part of it was probably perpetrated by a small minority because that’s usually the way it happens, and that part was counterproductive because it makes people more fearful and potentially supportive of even greater police militancy. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/159 "2014-12-05T01:23:47Z")
… And yet when football players follow some of the sage advice in this thread and stage a non violent, indeed silent, protest, they’re vilified for it. Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579/160 "2014-12-05T02:09:59Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > Exactly. And if you feel the police don’t represent you, why not join the police force to make a difference in your community, or at least encourage others to do so? By “don’t represent you” you mean “are actively trying to harm, kill and/or imprison you, even if no reason exists for doing so”, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-violence-such-as-we-have-seen-in-ferguson-mo-ever-appropriate/705579.md?page=9)