# Is war always evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075 "2002-12-16T14:06:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/61 "2002-12-21T02:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > \*\*The Gulf War may have been an example of this, but I’m not sure what the casualties were, or what they might have been had we stayed out. Howerer, Kuwait was a tiny nation, and Iraq considerably larger, and I think we did the right thing by coming in and pushing Kuwait out. \*\* What would you think about a German who didn’t know how many Jews the Nazis had killed? The problem with your statement is that Iraq’s withdrawal from Kuwait could have been accomplished without a war. Indeed, Iraqi withdrawal was called the “nightmare scenario.” The U.S. did everything possible to prevent a peaceful settlement. That’s a serious [crime](http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm), when you consider that the war led to the deaths of over 2 million people, mostly civilians. All of that could have been avoided, along with the massive suffering in Iraq. Don’t assume that the Gulf War was motivated by the Iraqi invasion. That is extremely unlikely, given that the U.S. had itself invaded Panama only a few months before. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/62 "2002-12-21T02:59:28Z")
Well the situation that led up to the Gulf War was started when Kuwait started to illegally slant drill Iraqi oil reserves. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/63 "2002-12-21T03:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* > > That’s a serious [crime](http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm), when you consider that the war led to the deaths of over 2 million people, mostly civilians. \*\* Two million? Got a cite for that? The average number of dead, on all sides, from over a dozen different sources, puts the number at 75,000-80,000 dead. The highest source puts dead at 200,000(Our Times), the lowest places the number at 9,500 dead (John Heidrich of Foreign Policy magazine, March 1993). [Compilation on death estimates.](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm#Gulf) ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/64 "2002-12-21T03:17:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Two million? Got a cite for that? The average number of dead, on all sides, from over a dozen different sources, puts the number at 75,000-80,000 dead. The highest source puts dead at 200,000(Our Times), the lowest places the number at 9,500 dead (John Heidrich of Foreign Policy magazine, March 1993). \*\* That lowest estimate should be dismissed as a cynical joke of a diseased mind. Just on the [highway of death](http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm) alone, tens of thousands were killed. Next time, try reading carefully before you respond. I said that the war **led** to the deaths of over 2 million, not that 2 million were killed in the war. This is true. If you count up the number killed directly by the war, those killed by [subsequent bombings](http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2776) (61 bombings so far in 2002, for example), and the [sanctions,](http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/) it comes up to over 2 million–every single one of whom died for no reason. Or rather, they died for the greed of western leaders. Don’t fret about it too much, though. They are only poor, brown people living on the other side of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/65 "2002-12-21T03:20:43Z")
Led to the deaths of 2 million? Do you realize that’s about 1/12th of the Iraqi population? What a joke. [Here](http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.mw.the.shtml) is a debunking of the alleged hundreds of thousands of deaths due to the UN sanctions, btw. So that doesn’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/66 "2002-12-21T03:35:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Led to the deaths of 2 million? Do you realize that’s about 1/12th of the Iraqi population? What a joke. > > [Here](http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.mw.the.shtml) is a debunking of the alleged hundreds of thousands of deaths due to the UN sanctions, btw. So that doesn’t hold water. \*\* It is your reference that is a joke. They claim, incredibly, that the estimates of Iraqi deaths rely on two studies performed in 1995. This is not the case. Literally dozens of studies have been performed by the most reputable human rights organizations on Earth. You can deny this holocaust if you like, but then you are no better than the likes of [Faurisson](http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Faurisson/). The hundreds of thousands of deaths caused by the sanctions is not disputed **even by the U.S. government**. In 1996, in a 60 Minutes interview, U.S. secretary of state Madeline Albright was asked about the 1/2 million Iraqi children killed by the sanctions. She replied that it was a tough choice, but “we think the price is worth it.” She did NOT dispute the figures, and that was in 1996. The article linked to by Daoloth claims, incredibly, that Albright was somehow confused or misled by some studies done in 1995. Amazing. Don’t worry, though. A couple hundred thousand Iraqi children doesn’t really add up to much. Mulitplying a zero by 100,000 still adds up to zero. So, yes, almost 1/10 of the population of Iraq has been killed by the U.S. since 1990, but no worries. These deaths caused exactly as much anguish in the west as the 1/3 of the population of East Timor slaughtered by our client. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/67 "2002-12-21T03:40:42Z")
I think you did an excellent job of skimming that article, and then regurgitating what your anti-American sources (not to mention the sanctions are UN, anyway) so daftly claim. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/68 "2002-12-21T03:49:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*I think you did an excellent job of skimming that article, and then regurgitating what your anti-American sources (not to mention the sanctions are UN, anyway) so daftly claim. \*\* Typical demagoguery. Not unlike, “That means losing the loonies on the left. Already there are signs of mounting liberal impatience with the routine smokescreens emanating from the usual anti-sanctions rabble.” You have to love that–“usual anti-sanctions rabble.” But, my “anti-American” sources like [UNICEF](http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm), tell me that the U.S. is, in the words of Dennis Halliday, former U.N. Assistant Secretary General and Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq, is “in the process of destroying an entire society.” It is quite telling that you use the phrase “anti-American.” This is a term that is only used by really dedicated totalitarians. Such phrases are unique to totalitarian cultures. So, like, there is no such phrase as “anti-Norweiganism” or “anti-Danism,” but there was a term for “anti-Soviet.” The truly dedicated totalitarian sees any deviation from 100% conformity as “anti-American.” ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/69 "2002-12-21T03:57:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Typical demagoguery. Not unlike, “That means losing the loonies on the left. Already there are signs of mounting liberal impatience with the routine smokescreens emanating from the usual anti-sanctions rabble.” You have to love that–“usual anti-sanctions rabble.” > > But, my “anti-American” sources like [UNICEF](http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm), tell me that the U.S. is, in the words of Dennis Halliday, former U.N. Assistant Secretary General and Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq, is “in the process of destroying an entire society.” > > It is quite telling that you use the phrase “anti-American.” This is a term that is only used by really dedicated totalitarians. Such phrases are unique to totalitarian cultures. So, like, there is no such phrase as “anti-Norweiganism” or “anti-Danism,” but there was a term for “anti-Soviet.” The truly dedicated totalitarian sees any deviation from 100% conformity as “anti-American.” \*\* The UNICEF report you linked outlines the crisis inherent in Iraq’s infant mortality rate. It acknowledges that sanctions are partially at fault, and urgers that the international community render more aid. However, it certainly doesn’t support your absurd claims that over a million have perished because of the sanctions. As to the US being a totalitarian culture: I wasn’t aware the US was devoted to “autocratic centralized rule.” Last I checked, the President could be impeached, and there were three branches of government that served as checks and balances. Although in your bizarro world, perhaps the US is really a fascist regime. In regards to you spouting anti-Americanism, I assert thus because you are blaming all the alleged misery in Iraq on the US, when clearly most of the alleged misery is derived from _UN_ imposed effects. You single out the US, one of many of the members of the UN, and then place the blame there. You even assert that the US is responsible for murdering 2.5 million Iraqis (1/10th of the population), although by your estimations, more than 2 million can be attributed to UN sanctions, not an explicitly American measure. Ergo, your irrational cornering of the US and unfounded blame game puts you with an agenda against the US itself. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/70 "2002-12-21T04:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > **The UNICEF report you linked outlines the crisis inherent in Iraq’s infant mortality rate. It acknowledges that sanctions are partially at fault, and urgers that the international community render more aid. However, it certainly doesn’t support your absurd claims that over a million have perished because of the sanctions.** It most certainly does. > [@](#): > > **As to the US being a totalitarian culture:…** Apparently you are not only a dedicated totalitarian, but you are unable to read. I never said that the U.S. was a totalitarian culture. I said that people who use the term “anti-American” are dedicated totalitarians. I stand by that claim. > [@](#): > > **In regards to you spouting anti-Americanism, I assert thus because you are blaming all the alleged misery in Iraq on the US, when clearly most of the alleged misery is derived from _UN_ imposed effects. You single out the US, one of many of the members of the UN, and then place the blame there.** Again, you exhibit your inability to read and your dedication to 100% conformity to establishment dogma. Never have I blamed all misery in Iraq on the U.S. I blame the misery that has been caused by the U.S. on the U.S. The sanctions exist only because of the U.S. If the U.S. were to press for the end of economic sanctions, they could be lifted tomorrow. Furthermore, the U.S. has announced on [numerous occasions](http://www.arabmediawatch.com/iraq/mythoflifting.htm) that the sanctions will not be lifted until Saddam is out of power. This therefore qualifies the sanctions as terrorism. Terrorism is attacking the civilian population for a political purpose. This is exactly what the sanctions are. They target the civilian population for the political purpose of removing Saddam from power. Your apologetics for terrorism are sickening. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/71 "2002-12-21T04:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*It most certainly does. > [1] Apparently you are not only a dedicated totalitarian, but you are unable to read. > > [2] I never said that the U.S. was a totalitarian culture. > > [3] I blame the misery that has been caused by the U.S. on the U.S. The sanctions exist only because of the U.S. If the U.S. were to press for the end of economic sanctions, they could be lifted tomorrow. > \*\* 1. Logical fallacy, _ad hominem attack_. 2. “This is a term that is only used by really dedicated totalitarians. Such phrases are unique to totalitarian cultures.” You say the phrase is unique to totalitarian cultures. I am of the American culture. Ergo, you asserted that American culture is inherently totalitarian. 1. Unprovable claim. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/72 "2002-12-21T04:24:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > **1. Logical fallacy, _ad hominem attack_.** How? > [@](#): > > \*\*2. “This is a term that is only used by really dedicated totalitarians. Such phrases are unique to totalitarian cultures.” > > You say the phrase is unique to totalitarian cultures. I am of the American culture. Ergo, you asserted that American culture is inherently totalitarian.\*\* False. The totalitarian culture of which you are a part represents only a narrow segment of American society. Most Americans are NOT totalitarians, just you and your like-minded cohorts. > [@](#): > > \*\*3. Unprovable claim. \*\* False. It is very easy to prove. Let’s see George Bush call for an end to economic sanctions and see how long it takes for them to end. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/73 "2002-12-21T04:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*It most certainly does. > \*\* Forgot to address this in the previous post. No, it does not support your assertion that the sanctions have killed more than a million. It doesn’t even give a total figure. I can’t see how you can logically arrive at such a conclusion, giving that extrapolating their figures as being the norm for the prior 10 years would be fallacious. As to your posturing that by that I’m a terrorism apologist, you are being very, very misleading. I’m not ‘apologizing,’ for anything; I’m presenting the facts of the matter without a beforehand bias. If you could conclusively prove that the sanctions have killed more than one million, or whatever the magic number is, I would believe it. But there is more than ample evidence that suggests the otherwise. As to your claim that the US government supports the number, this is only referenced by one remark by Madeline Albright. Her assertion has neither been supported nor denied by the government itself. Futhermore, you should realize she is not an infallible citadel of facts, as no one is. It is plausible that she was mistaken. Finally, you completely ignore the fact that much of the poverty in Iraq is due because of Saddam’s existence and management processes. Perhaps you haven’t noticed his construction of more than 70 elaborate personal palaces, or the construction of the world’s third largest mosque in downtown, all the while his people go on without proper housing in many locations. He has the funds to do construct tenements and free clinics, but he spends it on his own lavish purposes. Also, it should be noted, the sanctions to not impede the Iraqi government for importing food and many medicinal supplies. Saddam, however, is more content with smuggling his oil out, in order that he may augment his own pockets at the expense of his people. However, I doubt any amount of critial thinking or looking at two sides of an issue would ever move you away from your incessant demonization of the US. Much like someone who supports a pseudo-scientific notion, you seem to construct your theory first, and then selectively find evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/74 "2002-12-21T04:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*How? > False. The totalitarian culture of which you are a part represents only a narrow segment of American society. Most Americans are NOT totalitarians, just you and your like-minded cohorts. > False. It is very easy to prove. Let’s see George Bush call for an end to economic sanctions and see how long it takes for them to end. \*\* How is it an ad hominem attack? You insult me personally, by asserting that I’m illiterate. I think that’s pretty blatant. Oh, and thanks for informing me that I’m a part of the totalitarian fringe of American society. I hadn’t realized this. I better go amend my flag so that it has swastikas instead of stars, and do you think a sickle and hammer would look nice at the top of my family’s Christmas tree? I just see so much good in autocratic leadership, really. In other words, can no one defend their home nation against libel without getting libelled themselves? Finally, you can’t prove a hypothetical scenario. That should be obvious… ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/75 "2002-12-21T04:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > **As to your posturing that by that I’m a terrorism apologist, you are being very, very misleading. I’m not ‘apologizing,’ for anything; I’m presenting the facts of the matter without a beforehand bias.** Clearly false. You are indeed apologizing for the economic sanctions, sanctions that can only be described as terrorism. Even if we follow your lead in downplaying the role of the sanctions, it still follows that they have lead to the deaths of many tens of thousands of children. Yet, you are completely unwilling to condemn the state that maintains these murderous sanctions. > [@](#): > > **As to your claim that the US government supports the number, this is only referenced by one remark by Madeline Albright. Her assertion has neither been supported nor denied by the government itself. Futhermore, you should realize she is not an infallible citadel of facts, as no one is. It is plausible that she was mistaken.** What the Albright quote shows is that the American administration is quite willing to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians for a political purpose. This is quite beside the point of the actual numbers killed. > [@](#): > > \*\*Finally, you completely ignore the fact that much of the poverty in Iraq is due because of Saddam’s existence and management processes. \*\* [What’s the problem with Iraq?](http://beta.metafaq.com/action/answer?id=8AC3CC4A3D40FDF0C9F39ED3CDDB4763&ref=286183) [Are sanctions to blame for the suffering in Iraq?](http://beta.metafaq.com/action/answer?id=8AC3CC4A3D40FDF0C9F39ED3CDDB4763&ref=286163) [What part does the U.S. have in the sanctions?](http://beta.metafaq.com/action/answer?aref=286220&id=8AC3CC4A3D40FDF0C9F39ED3CDDB4763) [Doesn’t Iraq earn all it needs through oil sales?](http://beta.metafaq.com/action/answer?aref=286191&id=8AC3CC4A3D40FDF0C9F39ED3CDDB4763) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/76 "2002-12-21T04:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > The fact that you can dismiss the question regarding the universality of justice simply shows that you have no interest in justice. If you are unconcerned that Kissinger, for example, is walking around a free man while Milosevic is on trial, then you haven’t the slightest interest in justic. At least be honest about it. Glad to see that you’re back. Thought you’d split for some reason. Re the above quote, I’m beginning to wonder if you have some sort of problem understanding English. First of all, I have asked you three times for a yes or no answer regarding Milosevic, and you still can’t seem to spit one out. I have not dismissed the universality of justice, nor have I ever said that I am unconcerned about “Kissinger walking around”. BUT KISSINGER WAS NOT WHAT I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT; I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT MILO-fucking-SEVIC. Hey, there are lots of tyrants in the world, lots more than there is justice, it seems. But the idea that none can be brought to justice until they all are is one of flat-out stupidest things I’ve ever heard. And it still sounds to me like you are defending Milosevic, for some reason you have yet to clearly articulate. > [@](#): > > It is your reference that is a joke. They claim, incredibly, that the estimates of Iraqi deaths rely on two studies performed in 1995. This is not the case. Literally dozens of studies have been performed by the most reputable human rights organizations on Earth. Great. Name one and point to a summary on the Web. Because it really does sound like you are spouting more bullshit. Cheers, ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/77 "2002-12-21T04:42:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Yet, you are completely unwilling to condemn the state that maintains these murderous sanctions. > url] \*\* Really? Well, you never asked, nor was an opportunity provided. I do not support the UN sanctions against Iraq as they are. I feel that they should be amended, and that the Iraqi people suffer too much under them. I am in favor of abolishing and/or reforming the current state of affairs concering the UN sanctions. However, I realize that the suffering caused by the sanctions are greatly amplified by Saddam’s abuses of power, and I also contend that the number of deaths due to the sanctions is nowhere near a million, nor even the common misconception of 500,000. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/78 "2002-12-21T04:48:09Z")
**Daoloth** , I admire what you are doing, but you and I are pissing into the wind. This guy is not interested in debating anything; he has one and only one subject in mind and he no interest in anything but lecturing others on his beliefs. I know a closed mind when I see one, so I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/79 "2002-12-21T04:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\*Hey, there are lots of tyrants in the world, lots more than there is justice, it seems. But the idea that none can be brought to justice until they all are is one of flat-out stupidest things I’ve ever heard. And it still sounds to me like you are defending Milosevic, for some reason you have yet to clearly articulate. \*\* Why is this so hard to grasp? If you can easily bring various war criminals to justice, and choose not to, while at the same time prosecuting a vanquished enemy, then that is not justice. Like I said, justice is not justice if it is selectively applied. It would be quite a simple matter to bring literally dozens of major war criminals to justice. Just in Washington and New York City, we can find plenty to put Milosevic to shame. As for Milosevic, I thought I made that clear. The “trial” at the Hague is a joke, a travesty of justice. While there were certainly atrocities carried out by the Serbs in Kosovo, there has never been any credible evidence of Milosevic being responsible for war crimes. If you think that putting Milosevic on trial is a step toward justice, you are way, way off. This is simply a continuation of a centuries-old tradition of punishing the losing side. Milosevic’s real crime was that he was not obedient to Washington’s demands. That is what he is on trial for. The NATO carpet bombers and KLA cutthroats, you will notice, are NOT on trial. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075/80 "2002-12-21T04:51:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\ ***Daoloth** , I admire what you are doing, but you and I are pissing into the wind. This guy is not interested in debating anything; he has one and only one subject in mind and he no interest in anything but lecturing others on his beliefs. > > I know a closed mind when I see one, so I’m outta here. \*\* I agree that you’re most likely correct. But it’s a slow Friday night and there’s nothing to do. :o [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-war-always-evil/143075.md?page=5)