Is Windows 8.1 as awful as everyone says?

[BigT]

@Inner_Stickler

Let me put it this way. I found it which means it’s obvious enough for even an idiot. If you know people who couldn’t figure it out, that’s real sad.

No, it’s an indication that you have contempt for people who don’t randomly go around clicking shit. The majority of users don’t even use the right button on their mouse, let alone go around trying to do anything they haven’t already learned.

I will flat out call myself an expert on using computers. I sit here and help solve problems with them in GQ. I was essentially the system tech for my school back when I was still in seventh grade, going around fixing computers. And I never once thought to right click on the start button. I had to read about it, just like how to use the charms and even how to search for apps, since there’s no indication you can just start typing on the start screen.

I don’t know why you like to come into Windows 8 threads and show contempt for everyone who has problems with it and didn’t figure out what you figured out, but it’s getting old. I did that once, and then I learned. Because if multiple people don’t get something that I get, obviously I’m the fluke. Use your brain.

[Pabitel]

@Cubsfan

Have you actually used Win 8.1? It doesn’t sound like you have. Nearly every Metro app on my Surface is simpler and runs better than it’s desktop counterpart, which is still sitting right there for me to use. And what “crapware” are you referring to? At least on my Surface Pro 3 there was not a single piece of crapware installed. I don’t think there were even any third party applications if I recall.

I was comparing Metro to third party crapware. It serves no purpose except MS branding.
And there are not two separate applications, Metro is just an over-designed icon list to get to the same old apps you can access through the icon on the desktop.

@Cubsfan

What advertising?!? What splash screen? There is no advertising whatsoever on mine.

Again, I was referring to Metro. I consider it nothing but MS advertising. It serves no other purpose. It is an ill-conceived tack-on that serves no purpose except MS branding. They wanted their own “look” so we got Metro. It has no useful function.

[BigT]

@gaffa

I’ve used 8.1 and love it. I don’t use it on my regular machine because I don’t want to pay for an update to an expensive video editing program to the version that works with 8.1.

From what I understand, Microsoft went back to PARC, and discovered that in the years since they came up with windowing, they had come to the conclusion that it was a Bad Thing, that people wasted too much time fiddling with windows and moving them around - that they were taking advantage of higher resolution displays and splitting screens and tiling information.

If Microsoft had never introduced the Win8 interface, and Apple had instead, it would have been praised by their users as the best computer interface ever invented.

Where are you getting your information? If that were true, one of the main features of Windows 10 wouldn’t be the ability to run Metro apps in windows. There wouldn’t already be tools out there that let you do that today.

The Metro interface is a tablet interface. Tablets have smaller screens and less precise controls (fingers instead of a mouse.) Full screen apps give you as much space as possible where it is at a premium. Tablets are also generally lower powered, and thus limiting multitasking is also quite useful to keep things running smoothly.

These are features in all current tablets and phone OSes. Microsoft’s mistake was in assuming that traditional PCs were dying out, and all they needed was to provide a transitional layer for a while until everyone was using a tablet and wouldn’t need Desktop mode at all.

Apple did come up with this interface first. They just weren’t naive enough to thrust it on desktop users. Apple is not praised for their UI because they are Apple, but because they are much better at figuring out what people want.

You don’t believe me? Look at what people say about the iPhone 6. It’s Apple, so it must be great design, right? Not according to most people–it’s the ugliest phone Apple has produced.

[FordPrefect]

@Pabitel

[…]
Charms? is that what they call it? Anyway, it popping up has nothing to do with a particular motion. Anytime you move the cursor with the touch pad the stupid thing pops up and you can’t do anything, scroll, click, type, etc. until you carefully move your cursor so that it isn’t on top of the ribbon and click on the desktop. I basically freezes the computer and requires a click off the ribbon every time you move the cursor. I was able to reduce the number of times this happens by changing settings but I still can’t work for more than 5-10 minutes without the thing popping up and locking the screen on me. :mad:

Either you’re not aware that you have trailing finger swiping onto the track pad from the right side or you have an issue with your track pad. The charms bar is activated by mousing over to the top right corner of the screen, swiping from the right on a touchscreen or on the touch pad. There is probably some Win key combo for it to, but I don’t know it if there is.

As to whether the old Start Menu is god’s gift to computing vs. the Satanic Start Screen is a religious choice each person will have to make. I am happier looking through the 8.1 Start window rather than trying to mouse through layers of folders, readme icons, uninstallers, etc. to find the utility that I want to use. YMMV, as it seems to.

[Cubsfan]

@Pabitel

I was comparing Metro to third party crapware. It serves no purpose except MS branding.

MS branding of what?? I seriously question whether or not you have ever even seen the metro UI. There is no branding on there whatsoever. What in the world are talking about?

And there are not two separate applications, Metro is just an over-designed icon list to get to the same old apps you can access through the icon on the desktop. .

Ok. Now I really am convinced that you’ve never actually used it. I assure you, IE Metro is a completely different, and mostly superior, program from IE 10. One Note is a different app completely. The mail app is different. Seriously man, you should at least have a clue what you are talking about before trashing something.

Again, I was referring to Metro. I consider it nothing but MS advertising. It serves no other purpose. It is an ill-conceived tack-on that serves no purpose except MS branding. They wanted their own “look” so we got Metro. It has no useful function.

Advertising what? Tablet UI capability?

Functionally the only thing I really dislike about the metro UI is how it shows file structures and what not. It’s really painful.

[Pabitel]

@FordPrefect

I am happier looking through the 8.1 Start window rather than trying to mouse through layers of folders, readme icons, uninstallers, etc. to find the utility that I want to use. YMMV, as it seems to.

I use the Start menu 2-3 times a month. I use Shortcuts for everything I access regularly. And the benefit the the Start menu has is that it doesn’t jump up every time I start up the machine and say “Hey! Over Here! Look at me, Look at me!”

[Pabitel]

@Cubsfan

Now I really am convinced that you’ve never actually used it. I assure you, IE Metro is a completely different, and mostly superior, program from IE 10.

I wouldn’t know I haven’t used a Microsoft browser since the 90s.

@Cubsfan

Advertising what? Tablet UI capability?

On a desktop or laptop the Metro interface has the same functionality as the active desktop in Windows 7. The only change is the extra screen popping up. The only reason for the extra screen popping up is so that you have to look at Microsoft’s branding. You do understand that all those stupid little panes on Metro are just icons and widgets in another form and the only reason for these changes is because Microsoft wanted their own “look”. Windows 8 is nothing but a rebranding for MS. Some good stuff may have been done under the hood, but the interface redesign was pure marketing with no benefit to the end user.

[Inner_Stickler]

@BigT

The majority of users don’t even use the right button on their mouse, let alone go around trying to do anything they haven’t already learned.

Other people being nervous nellies is hardly my problem. Win8.1 is neither difficult nor unintuitive. The first time I used it, I was just as keyed up as everyone else to hate it and bitch about it to everyone within hearing distance. I love a good bitching. But it’s just not terrible. It works fine. Sorry 'bout it. If you don’t like it, you’re allowed, but the rest of us are also allowed to think your criticisms are stupid.

[Macca26]

@Pabitel

I wouldn’t know I haven’t used a Microsoft browser since the 90s.

On a desktop or laptop the Metro interface has the same functionality as the active desktop in Windows 7. The only change is the extra screen popping up. The only reason for the extra screen popping up is so that you have to look at Microsoft’s branding. You do understand that all those stupid little panes on Metro are just icons and widgets in another form and the only reason for these changes is because Microsoft wanted their own “look”. Windows 8 is nothing but a rebranding for MS. Some good stuff may have been done under the hood, but the interface redesign was pure marketing with no benefit to the end user.

Well, it has a benefit to me. I’ve got a laptop/tablet and the old start menu would’ve been an absolute pain to navigate with touch (I would accidentally open the wrong things all the time because of their size and finickyness of opening folder submenus with touch). The newly designed start screen is everything I could want in a laptop/tablet hybrid. I’ve even used the menu on keyboard and mouse only computers and it’s not horrible (just a bit weird to scroll is all, mostly), so I consider this change a net positive. Especially since more and more screens, even for desktops, are becoming touch enabled.

[jz78817]

@Inner_Stickler

Other people being nervous nellies is hardly my problem. Win8.1 is neither difficult nor unintuitive. The first time I used it, I was just as keyed up as everyone else to hate it and bitch about it to everyone within hearing distance. I love a good bitching. But it’s just not terrible. It works fine. Sorry 'bout it. If you don’t like it, you’re allowed, but the rest of us are also allowed to think your criticisms are stupid.

“Intuitive” is probably one of the most misused terms in computing.

[Pabitel]

@Macca26

Well, it has a benefit to me. I’ve got a laptop/tablet and the old start menu would’ve been an absolute pain to navigate with touch (I would accidentally open the wrong things all the time because of their size and finickyness of opening folder submenus with touch). The newly designed start screen is everything I could want in a laptop/tablet hybrid. I’ve even used the menu on keyboard and mouse only computers and it’s not horrible (just a bit weird to scroll is all, mostly), so I consider this change a net positive. Especially since more and more screens, even for desktops, are becoming touch enabled.

As I said I have never even seen a Win 8 phone or tablet. It may work fine on a touch interface. I have only seen Win 8 on a desktop and a full sized laptop. Neither benefits from the Metro screen.
BTW: The laptop I have has a touch enabled screen, which I quickly disabled. Everything I have read and my personal experience shows that a touch screen where you have to reach up and out to access the interface is an ergonomic nightmare. No desktop or laptop should ever be sold with a touch screen, for physical therapy reasons if nothing else.
I can see the convertible tablets being touch enabled, but I would never use one in keyboard mode for mare than a few minutes without pulling out a mouse.

[Macca26]

@Pabitel

As I said I have never even seen a Win 8 phone or tablet. It may work fine on a touch interface. I have only seen Win 8 on a desktop and a full sized laptop. Neither benefits from the Metro screen.
BTW: The laptop I have has a touch enabled screen, which I quickly disabled. Everything I have read and my personal experience shows that a touch screen where you have to reach up and out to access the interface is an ergonomic nightmare. No desktop or laptop should ever be sold with a touch screen, for physical therapy reasons if nothing else.
I can see the convertible tablets being touch enabled, but I would never use one in keyboard mode for mare than a few minutes without pulling out a mouse.

It’s amazing how I disagree on just about everything you say. I don’t know how to put it more plainly than that!

[Pabitel]

@Macca26

It’s amazing how I disagree on just about everything you say. I don’t know how to put it more plainly than that!

Well it sounds like you’ve never used Windows 8 on anything but a tablet with a detachable keyboard. So I’m not surprised.

In a few months/years everyone with a touch enabled desktop or laptop is either going to go back to a mouse/touchpad on their own or is going to be heading to their doctor’s office with this generation’s version of carpal tunnel syndrome or “Blackberry thumb” and these computer manufacturers are going to be sued for selling that crap. I literally can’t find anyone in the ergonomics industry who isn’t predicting this.

[aruvqan]

@chappachula

So it’s not as awful as everyone says…it’s just awful enough that you can’t use it the way you want to. Oh, And you have to pay for privilege, and say thank you.

Sort of like pledging a fraternity, and saying “thank you sir” every time they beat your ass with the paddle.

What pay, they just tried to shove an upgrade to 8.1 onto my 8.0 laptop. I just got used to 8.0 so I nerfed the auto upgrade and removed the 2 forced updates that luckily I refused to go through until I decide i I want to learn a new partial UI change so soon. sigh

[ISiddiqui]

I’ve always used Win8.0 and 8.1 on a laptop with a non-touch display. Keyboard and trackpad. I’ve had no issues with it whatsoever. It took me a few days to figure it out, but it was pretty simple after that. I don’t get the fuss and it’s actually easier than the Start Menu, IMO (which I still have to use at work). The All Programs show up in a grid on your screen rather than a long ass list for one. The Search seems much quicker.

[lazybratsche]

I got a Surface Pro 3 a few weeks ago, and with it I’ve been learning my way around Windows 8.1. For the most part I’ve been using it either as a desktop, with an extra monitor, mouse, and keyboard, or a straight up tablet. This is where Windows 8.1 should shine, right?

My impression, in a nutshell, is that 8.1 is a perfectly functional desktop operating system, with a pretty good tablet user interface. But the user interface changes are almost entirely unhelpful on the desktop, if only because I have to unlearn two fucking decades of muscle memory using the start menu. If I had never used Windows before, I probably wouldn’t have any problems with the new use interface.

Now I have all my commonly used programs pinned to the taskbar, and most of the desktop programs pinned to the bottom-left of the start screen. In daily desktop use I don’t have to worry about the start screen, and when I do it’s not terribly different from the old start menu: throw mouse in bottom corner, click, point at something on the bottom left of the screen, click.

In tablet mode, all of the touchscreen gestures actually work pretty well. However, 8.1 isn’t really a tablet operating system. First and foremost it has extremely primitive approach to power management. As I’ve found, it cannot tell me what programs or processes are using power, how much energy they’ve used. It’ll happily let a program (even a Modern app) thrash the CPU for no particular reason, and without any indication that this is happening easily accessible from the touch screen. (Obviously there’s task manager, but it’s not as immediately accessible as it is on the desktop, and it’s awkward to use with a touch screen). There isn’t even a good way to see how much battery life I have! All I’ve found, except for the old-fashioned system tray icon (which again is awkward to use on a touch screen), is a tiny little battery icon that only shows up when you open the Charms.

As a tablet platform, Windows 8.1 is astonishingly weak. The Windows App store in particular is just embarrassing. IME, there are only a handful of good apps: Internet Explorer (!), OneNote, Nextgen Reader, and VLC media player. Of those, only Nextgen Reader is good enough that I use it when I have a keyboard & mouse plugged in (it has a particularly well designed interface that works well with any input method). I’ve heard good things about a mere handful of other apps, and then there are some that are nearly good but have a critical flaw. The vast majority, however, are total crap.

TL;DR: Windows 8.1 is a perfectly functional desktop operating system, but there’s a lot to be desired on a tablet. The user interface is good on a tablet but a pointless change for the desktop.

p.s. while typing this, a notification to Share My Opinions With Microsoft. Ok, Microsoft, you’re being a fucking creep.

[jz78817]

My impression, in a nutshell, is that 8.1 is a perfectly functional desktop operating system, with a pretty good tablet user interface. But the user interface changes are almost entirely unhelpful on the desktop, if only because I have to unlearn two fucking decades of muscle memory using the start menu. If I had never used Windows before, I probably wouldn’t have any problems with the new use interface.

the Start Menu has changed multiple times in the past two fucking decades. I doubt you have any “muscle memory” relating to it.

[WolfpackJeep]

@lazybratsche

p.s. while typing this, a notification to Share My Opinions With Microsoft. Ok, Microsoft, you’re being a fucking creep.

Office 2013 added a feature where you can send a “smile” or a “frown” to Microsoft, along with feedback, regarding each program’s features. I’ll admit that I got so excited over how well the desktop version of OneNote synchronizes with the mobile version that I sent a smile.

[JayRx1981]

@FordPrefect

Fair enough, I don’t use NFS or WMC at home so I was not aware of that change. My Lenovo came bundled with DVD playback support, which I have used once, so that bothers me far less than the current DVD support on the XBox One. Which, is a rant for another thread

Honestly, I don’t use NFS anymore anyways, though at the time Win8 launched, I did. I ended up not really missing it, since Samba shares, while generally poorer in performance, serve well enough for light home fileserver use, though I can see someone running under heavier use or mixed OS scenarios being less than thrilled with it’s removal.

The removal of WMC was just bizarre to me, though I suspect I’m atypical as far as Windows users go. At the time they were introducing a completely new startup UI which actually could have worked really well as a 10-foot UI for an HTPC hooked up to a large screen TV. However, instead of using a Metro-converted WMC (or even just baking WMC functions into Metro while ditching it’s menu screen) to showcase an arguably smart use for the Start Screen/Metro environment as the center of media playback, they cut out the one good use for a start screen besides use in a touch-screen device that I can think of. They could have even easily monetized it via in-app purchases (much though I hate that phenomenon) by making it so you could add back DVD playback (which I’m given to understand was removed because most people didn’t use Windows Media Player for DVD playback, so why pay the licensing fee for every copy of Windows), or Blu-ray playback, or MKV support, or DTS-HD MA/TrueHD codec support for a couple of bucks here, a couple of bucks there, with a return to the start screen from playing back media continuing to play the media in a live tile so you don’t miss anything if you need to check another live tile (at least as an option, if not on by default).

Oh well, at least the start menu is back as the default on desktops in the Windows 10 tech preview, complete with a power button, and they are adding native MKV and FLAC support for Windows Media Player. Heck, other than Dragon Age: Inquisition, which never fails to crash it, my Win 10 TP install is otherwise rock solid, and I’m running it in a virtual machine with a passed-through video card on a Linux Mint host. So at least Win8/8.1 haters have something to look forward to.

[BigT]

@Inner_Stickler

Other people being nervous nellies is hardly my problem. Win8.1 is neither difficult nor unintuitive. The first time I used it, I was just as keyed up as everyone else to hate it and bitch about it to everyone within hearing distance. I love a good bitching. But it’s just not terrible. It works fine. Sorry 'bout it. If you don’t like it, you’re allowed, but the rest of us are also allowed to think your criticisms are stupid.

You are making up crap I didn’t say. We are discussing one very specific thing, the fact that right clicking on something is not discoverable. If you’d actually read the thread, you’d realize that I think 8.1 is fine.

You’re the one who said something stupid. You decided to castigate others for not knowing about a feature that it is unlikely for most people to have figured out. You admit you are an “idiot” about computers, yet when someone shows up who knows more and tries to fight your ignorance, you double down on your idiocy.

The fact that you discovered something doesn’t make it intuitive. You aren’t that special. What matters is whether most people have discovered it. Seeing as you had to snark about it in this thread, it’s clear most people didn’t know about it.

I already met your anecdotes with anecdotes, so you need something else. The only counter argument you have is to actually bring up studies that show that people do in fact know about it.

I may not be an expert, but, unlike you, I’ve actually studied UI design. I know why the right click menu is there, and it’s not supposed to be used by normal users. It’s there for power users who are supposed to read about it. That’s why it’s not discoverable. Castigating people for not knowing about it, which you did, is missing the entire point.

Instead of putting words in my mouth, try actually listening and fighting your own ignorance, instead of showing contempt for everyone.