# Is "womens" a word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152 "2008-03-20T23:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/1 "2008-03-20T23:35:53Z")
My question is prompted by the [Magee-Womens Hospital](http://www.upmc.com/HospitalsFacilities/Magee/) located in Pittsburgh PA. Why “Magee-Womens?” Is it, as it appears to be, a hospital for women that was named in honor of a person with the surname “Magee?” And if so, shouldn’t it be “Magee Women’s Hospital?” “Magee-Womens Hospital” seems to suggest that the hospital was named in honor of some person with the compound surname “Magee-Womens” (or perhaps two people: “Magee” and “Womens”); and the fact that the hospital focuses on women is just a peculiar coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/2 "2008-03-20T23:42:24Z")
People don’t like to include apostrophes in trademarks and signs. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/3 "2008-03-20T23:47:08Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] People don’t like to include apostrophes in trademarks and signs. [/QUOTE] Now that you mention it, I have noticed this. What is the reason for it? And what’s the deal with the seemingly needless hyphenation? Apostrophes are bad, but hyphens are good? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/4 "2008-03-20T23:51:04Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] Now that you mention it, I have noticed this. What is the reason for it? And what’s the deal with the seemingly needless hyphenation? Apostrophes are bad, but hyphens are good? [/QUOTE] OK? They know me at the NYTimes by now, from the relentlessness with which I email them about their unnecessary hyphens. Happily they usually remove them when they’re pointed out. Still, you wouldn’t think I’d have to do that for them, would you? And reasons? I think people think apostrophes are fussy, or gay or something. But I can’t reconcile the apostrophobia with the hyphenophilia; color me bewildered. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/5 "2008-03-21T00:07:22Z")
On a related note, the cleaners up the street uses an apostrophe incorrectly. The apostrophe in question is a needle with thread. And the sign reads,Taylor’s Art Cleaners. Every time I see that sign I want to have my sculpture pollished. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/6 "2008-03-21T00:51:31Z")
[QUOTE=Glazer] On a related note, the cleaners up the street uses an apostrophe incorrectly. The apostrophe in question is a needle with thread. And the sign reads,Taylor’s Art Cleaners. Every time I see that sign I want to have my sculpture pollished. [/QUOTE] What do they actually do? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/7 "2008-03-21T00:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=Glazer] On a related note, the cleaners up the street uses an apostrophe incorrectly. The apostrophe in question is a needle with thread. And the sign reads,Taylor’s Art Cleaners. Every time I see that sign I want to have my sculpture pollished. [/QUOTE] Hmm. As far as I can tell, the apostrophe in your example is correct. Are you referring to the Taylor-v-tailor incongruity? I’d assume that’s a pun rather than a misspelling. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/8 "2008-03-21T00:57:59Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] OK? They know me at the NYTimes by now, from the relentlessness with which I email them about their unnecessary hyphens. Happily they usually remove them when they’re pointed out. Still, you wouldn’t think I’d have to do that for them, would you? [/QUOTE] Can you give some examples of the NYTimes’s overuse of hyphens? I always notice the overuse of dashes, but everyone is overusing dashes today ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/9 "2008-03-21T01:05:11Z")
Regarding the OP, my assumption is that the hyphen reflects a historical merger of two hospitals, Magee and Womens. There are other hospitals with a similar name construction. Cedars-Sinai is one of the more famous. Its history is discussed here: [A Nonprofit Hospital in Los Angeles | Cedars-Sinai](http://www.csmc.edu/pdf/HistPersp703.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/10 "2008-03-21T01:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] People don’t like to include apostrophes in trademarks and signs. [/QUOTE] That’s true, but it’s also not necessary to use apostrophes is certain situations with group plurals. I think that applies here. I wish I remembered the rule. One of my editors explained it to me recently, but it didn’t stick. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/11 "2008-03-21T01:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] That’s true, but it’s also not necessary to use apostrophes is certain situations with group plurals. I think that applies here. I wish I remembered the rule. One of my editors explained it to me recently, but it didn’t stick. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what situations you’re talking about, but “women’s”–possessive–requires an apostrophe. “Womens” is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/12 "2008-03-21T01:44:21Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] I’m not sure what situations you’re talking about, but “women’s”–possessive–requires an apostrophe. “Womens” is not correct. [/QUOTE] I’ll probably have to wait for work tomorrow to clarify what I was told. Here’s hoping I wasn’t steered wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/13 "2008-03-21T02:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] People don’t like to include apostrophes in trademarks and signs. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Harriet the Spry] Regarding the OP, my assumption is that the hyphen reflects a historical merger of two hospitals, Magee and Womens. There are other hospitals with a similar name construction. [/QUOTE] [Brigham and Women’s Hospital](https://www.brighamandwomens.org/general/about_us.aspx) in Boston must be an exception then. They use the apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/14 "2008-03-21T02:54:30Z")
Shouldn’t it be _Womens’_ ? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/15 "2008-03-21T02:58:47Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Shouldn’t it be _Womens’_ ? [/QUOTE] No. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/16 "2008-03-21T03:00:10Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] No. [/QUOTE] Oh. Carry on then. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/17 "2008-03-21T03:05:09Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] My question is prompted by the [Magee-Womens Hospital](http://www.upmc.com/HospitalsFacilities/Magee/) located in Pittsburgh PA. Why “Magee-Womens?” Is it, as it appears to be, a hospital for women that was named in honor of a person with the surname “Magee?” And if so, shouldn’t it be “Magee Women’s Hospital?” “Magee-Womens Hospital” seems to suggest that the hospital was named in honor of some person with the compound surname “Magee-Womens” (or perhaps two people: “Magee” and “Womens”); and the fact that the hospital focuses on women is just a peculiar coincidence. [/QUOTE] Barring the possibility that there was a person whose last name was “Womens,” I think it should be “Women’s.” I was posting something in another thread with questions about my camera, and I had to think about how to name the manual that came with it. 1. Owner’s Manual implies the camera (and therefore the manual) belonged to one owner, i.e. me. 2. Owners’ Manual implies a lot of us bought this camera and have this manual. 3. Owners Manual is a usage like “coffee table” where a noun modifies a noun. But women, being already plural, would require the apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/18 "2008-03-21T03:45:40Z")
It should be Women’s. And what is wrong with Taylor’s? And don’t get me started on “Two Brother’s Beauty Supplies.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/19 "2008-03-21T03:59:20Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Oh. Carry on then. [/QUOTE] If you were wondering, it’s because women is already plural and plural nouns take the usual ‘s possessive rather than the s’ possessive. So it’s women’s, children’s, cattle’s, etc., and not womens’, childrens’, or cattles’. Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/20 "2008-03-21T03:59:52Z")
Possessives of that small handful of English nouns not ending in -s (or -x for a few borrowings from French) are formed as if the singular, with -'s. _Women’s, men’s, children’s, oxen’s, sheep’s, cattle’s…_. I have no clue what the possessive of _chateaux_ ought to be; I suspect the proper course is to shoot the would-be user of the term. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152.md?page=2)