# Is "womens" a word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152 "2008-03-20T23:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/21 "2008-03-21T04:04:14Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] And don’t get me started on “Two Brother’s Beauty Supplies.” [/QUOTE] :smack: I suspect I have you beat, though: A fruit-and-vegetable stand in my old home town, now defunct, for years claimed that they had Fresh “Tomatoe’s” I suspect that goes for a grammatical solecism hat trick. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/22 "2008-03-21T05:22:25Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] I have no clue what the possessive of _chateaux_ ought to be; I suspect the proper course is to shoot the would-be user of the term. [/QUOTE] The possessive of “chateaux” is “chateaux’s,” but in American English you probably want to use “chateaus’.” This Wikipedia article is not very good, but is the only thing I could find online: > **[Apostrophe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Nouns_ending_with_silent_.22s.22.2C_.22x.22.2C_or_.22z.22)** > > The apostrophe (’, ') is a punctuation mark, and sometimes a diacritical mark, in languages that use the Latin alphabet and some other alphabets. In English, the apostrophe is used for two basic purposes: > It is also used in a few exceptional cases for the marking of plurals, e.g., "p's and q's" or Oakland A's. The same mark is used as a single quotation mark. It is also substituted informally for other marks – for example instead of the prime symbol to indicate the units of foot or minutes of... ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/23 "2008-03-21T07:13:07Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] And what is wrong with Taylor’s? [/QUOTE] Assuming his name is Taylor Art, then it should be Taylor Art’s Cleaners, if it’s a partnership, it should be Taylor-Art Cleaners. In other words, the possessive is on the wrong name. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/24 "2008-03-21T08:07:05Z")
I read it as “Art of the Tailor” cleaners, using an archaic alternate spelling of “tailor.” “Women’s” should have an apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/25 "2008-03-21T14:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=TWDuke] I read it as “Art of the Tailor” cleaners, using an archaic alternate spelling of “tailor.” [/QUOTE] That’s what I thought as well. Or “the art of a man named Taylor.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/26 "2008-03-21T14:34:53Z")
“I got me some womens” is acceptable usage, if you are an old-time blues singer. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/27 "2008-03-21T14:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I’ll probably have to wait for work tomorrow to clarify what I was told. Here’s hoping I wasn’t steered wrong. [/QUOTE] This morning he doesn’t remember the conversation at all, even though we did have it - and had it again the next day. Oh well. Lacking any independent confirmation of whatever I was told, I withdraw my comment. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/28 "2008-03-21T14:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=TWDuke] “Women’s” should have an apostrophe. [/QUOTE] Isn’t that a tautology? Doesn’t “women’s” have to have an apostrophe? If it didn’t, it would be “womens.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/29 "2008-03-21T15:24:28Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] This morning he doesn’t remember the conversation at all, even though we did have it - and had it again the next day. Oh well. Lacking any independent confirmation of whatever I was told, I withdraw my comment. [/QUOTE] He was probably talking about attributive uses, like “teachers college” or “writers guild.” Note that in both those cases, there is a valid plural. “Womens hospital” doesn’t work because “womens” isn’t a valid plural. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/30 "2008-03-21T17:19:00Z")
I seem to remember that apostrophes in signs got tangled up in the huffy “signs must be in French” issue in Quebéc. Some franchise stores had to paint over the apostrophe on their signs in order to be legal. Now that I looked up Magee-Womens Hospital, though, I see it’s in Pittsburgh, PA, not near the border, and the website has the same lack of an apostrophe. I offer no excuse for them. “Wimmens! Ya can’t live with 'em, and ya can’t put 'em all in a pickup truck.” ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/31 "2008-03-21T17:30:02Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] I seem to remember that apostrophes in signs got tangled up in the huffy “signs must be in French” issue in Quebéc. [/QUOTE] Nitpick: Signs must be _predominantly_ in French. You can have English lettering, but the French lettering has to be more prominent. Although a look at Wikipedia shows that the law originally banned all English signs. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/32 "2008-03-21T18:31:07Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Isn’t that a tautology? Doesn’t “women’s” have to have an apostrophe? If it didn’t, it would be “womens.” [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t it be a tautology only if every occurrence of an apostrophe were correct? Anyway, the plural possessive of “woman” is “women’s” but the, _ahem_, correct way of spelling the hospital’s name is indeed “Magee-Womens Hospital,” per the [UPMC Branding Guide](http://www.upmc.com/Webteam/PDF/BrandManual.pdf) (PDF). > [@](#): > > Use a hyphen between Magee and Womens and do not add an apostrophe to Womens. On second reference, use Magee-Womens > or Magee. It’s just as well I’m not a copy editor, because I would be tempted to use “Magee-Womens [sic] Hospital” on every reference. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/33 "2008-03-21T18:53:20Z")
[QUOTE=TWDuke] Wouldn’t it be a tautology only if every occurrence of an apostrophe were correct? [/QUOTE] It was just a dumb joke playing off you writing, “‘Women’s’ should have an apostrophe”; instead of writing, “The possessive of ‘women’ should have an apostrophe (followed by an ‘s’).” “Women’s” has to have have an apostrophe. After all, it is right there. ---
**Author:** ![Epiplexed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@Epiplexed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epiplexed)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/34 "2008-03-21T19:12:10Z")
In phrases like “womens clothing” etc., some style guides (e.g. The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed., p. 201) accept the apostrophe-less version on the grounds that the first noun is functioning as an ‘attributive’ rather than a true possessive – putting it in the same category, for example, as the “accounts” of “accounts manager.” There are some other cases of “validly missing apostrophes” in placenames in which someone who was initially considered to have discovered or owned the site has been forgotten by the general public, leaving the name as a kind of fossil – Pikes Peak, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/35 "2008-03-21T19:21:33Z")
[QUOTE=Epiplexed] There are some other cases of “validly missing apostrophes” in placenames in which someone who was initially considered to have discovered or owned the site has been forgotten by the general public, leaving the name as a kind of fossil – Pikes Peak, for example. [/QUOTE] It’s not that there was a judgment made that the name no longer referred to the antecedent, I believe, but that the federal government decided it wanted to use apostrophes for other purposes and didn’t want them making official maps confusing when they were used in place names. Of course, that still doesn’t make it “wrong” to call it _Pike’s Peak_. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/36 "2008-03-21T19:48:04Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] It was just a dumb joke playing off you writing, “‘Women’s’ should have an apostrophe”; instead of writing, “The possessive of ‘women’ should have an apostrophe (followed by an ‘s’).” “Women’s” has to have have an apostrophe. After all, it is right there. [/QUOTE] But “that dog has a severed human hand in its mouth” is not logically equivalent to “that dog should have a severed human hand in its mouth,” is it? [QUOTE=Epiplexed] In phrases like “womens clothing” etc., some style guides (e.g. The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed., p. 201) accept the apostrophe-less version on the grounds that the first noun is functioning as an ‘attributive’ rather than a true possessive – putting it in the same category, for example, as the “accounts” of “accounts manager.” [/QUOTE] I hate Chicago. “Accounts” is a legitimate plural noun; “womens” is not. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/37 "2008-03-22T01:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] That’s true, but it’s also not necessary to use apostrophes is certain situations with group plurals. I think that applies here. I wish I remembered the rule. One of my editors explained it to me recently, but it didn’t stick. [/QUOTE] The only example I can think of is “Beatles songs,” where “Beatles” functions adjectivally, not as a possessive. (cf. Dickens novels, which cf. Hemingway novels) Other than that, I got nothin’. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/38 "2008-03-22T01:26:49Z")
> [@](#): > > I suspect I have you beat, though: A fruit-and-vegetable stand in my old home town, now defunct, for years claimed that they had > > ``` > Fresh "Tomatoe's" > > ``` Still, I’d rather buy those than “fresh” Tomatoe’s I’m just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/39 "2008-03-22T12:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Shouldn’t it be _Womens’_ ? [/QUOTE] because the plural of woman is irregular (i.e. not womans) it obtains 's to indicate possessiveness. Same goes for “the mice’s den”. Had woman been a regular noun, its plural possessive would have been ‘Womans’. I started a thread to sort out this and other questions about a week ago but now I cannot seem to find it… About this “cleaner” that was mentioned earlier, shouldn’t it be cleaner’s? I always thought it was a short-hand for ‘the cleaner’s place’ or something. And is short-hand needlessly hyphenated? Educate me. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152/40 "2008-03-22T14:29:20Z")
[QUOTE=Švejk] About this “cleaner” that was mentioned earlier, shouldn’t it be cleaner’s? I always thought it was a short-hand for ‘the cleaner’s place’ or something. And is short-hand needlessly hyphenated? Educate me. [/QUOTE] Yes, it is needlessly hyphenated. _Shorthand_ is correct, per Webster’s. What is likely confusing you is that two-word combinations (such as _two-word previously_) that are used to modify a noun (combinations) should be hyphenated. Also, the term _short-handed_ would be hyphenated for this very same reason. In “The store was short-handed,” _store_ is the noun being modified by _short-handed_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-womens-a-word/442152.md?page=3)