# Is working a normal job unnatural? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427 "2016-11-02T10:48:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/21 "2016-11-02T20:38:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In some areas like tropical islands, life was really easy most of the time. > > But yeah, having spent summers working on the family farm, it’s hard work. My Cousin and I were sent there every summer, from ages 8-12, and trust me they kept us busy. Feeding the chickens, weeding the family garden, picking bugs off (and feeding them to the chickens, which was fun), taking animals out to pasture and bringing them back, getting eggs… > > I honestly think every kid should do this. As someone who lives in an actual tropical island, I can assure you that hunting and gathering would still be damn hard work. Sure, easier than some frozen tundra, but still damn hard. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/22 "2016-11-02T20:59:02Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > As someone who lives in an actual tropical island, I can assure you that hunting and gathering would still be damn hard work. Sure, easier than some frozen tundra, but still damn hard. Ohh, cool. Tell us more. But apparently life in say Tahiti was pretty idyllic. ---
**Author:** ![sara20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@sara20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sara20)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/23 "2016-11-02T23:17:35Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I don’t know too much about farming 1000 years ago, but my grandparents and great grandparents farmed were farmers until the mid 1950s. > > Even though they were primarily wheat farmers, they also kept chickens and a cow or two and geese, pigs and goats - for the family. So even in the middle of winter, in a blizzard, those animals needed to be cared for. They also needed to be butchered and processed. The family garden was three acres - beans, cabbage, beets, peas, herbs, squash. Not including the raspberry and strawberry patches. Gardens are in continual weeding, thinning, processing, planting, harvesting - and then canning. > > My grandfather was an excellent mechanic - you had to be. You had to take care of the tractor yourself. And the truck. You also had to be a good builder. Barns, chicken coops and houses all need constant maintenance. Fences need mending. > > As an early 20th century farmer, you worked every single day. Maybe there were months (January) where you only had three hours of work in the day - feeding animals and general maintenance. I don’t mean to offend any farmers reading this, but I live in the country around many farms, have a food garden myself, have farmer friends, and my grandmother and father grew up on a farm and told me lots of stories about it. From what I gather many farmers in the past had animals to help feed themselves but it was not a 8 hour job to feed and care for them. The farmers I know do perform “busy work” to keep themselves occupied but work at their own pace and I would not say it is extremely hard work. They do work very hard twice a year like I said. As for what’s unnatural you could go back to hunter gatherer, but my point was more if it is unnaturally harmful, physically, emotionally or spiritually. Computers are unnatural, but so is working a night shift, which has been shown to be harmful to ones health long term. That is more what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/24 "2016-11-02T23:28:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ohh, cool. Tell us more. > > But apparently life in say Tahiti was pretty idyllic. Historically, the problem with idyllic tropical islands was population control. If there’s plenty of food for anyone, nice weather and few diseases, unless you have some active measures in place (celibacy customs, warfare, infanticide), sooner or later the population grows too big for the island to support, and then things get real ugly, real fast. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/25 "2016-11-02T23:34:58Z")
> [@sara20](#): > > I don’t mean to offend any farmers reading this, but I live in the country around many farms, have a food garden myself, have farmer friends, and my grandmother and father grew up on a farm and told me lots of stories about it. From what I gather many farmers in the past had animals to help feed themselves but it was not a 8 hour job to feed and care for them. The farmers I know do perform “busy work” to keep themselves occupied but work at their own pace and I would not say it is extremely hard work. They do work very hard twice a year like I said. > > As for what’s unnatural you could go back to hunter gatherer, but my point was more if it is unnaturally harmful, physically, emotionally or spiritually. Computers are unnatural, but so is working a night shift, which has been shown to be harmful to ones health long term. That is more what I meant. You got different stories than I did. I got stories of a farm that managed to keep twelve children hopping in all but the coldest months, when the boys got a break (and had to fit school in), but the girls spent a lot of time sewing and knitting (and had to fit school in)- if there was sufficient light (the house didn’t get power until after WWII). And no, it wasn’t an eight hour job to milk two cows and three goats, get the eggs, feed the chickens and pigs. Which is why the boys got a break in the coldest months. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/26 "2016-11-03T03:24:32Z")
> [@sara20](#): > > The farmers I know do perform “busy work” to keep themselves occupied but work at their own pace and I would not say it is extremely hard work. It’d be hard work just filling in that hole you keep digging deeper for yourself. > [@John Mace](#): > > Where can I sign up for one of these twice-a-year work farming jobs? I’m in!! [Here’s information](http://www.pickingjobs.com/usa/florida-picking-jobs/) on how you can land a couple of nice gigs every year in a lovely mild climate. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/27 "2016-11-03T13:32:21Z")
To get to your point, is modern worklife harmful? It was for me…but farming wouldn’t be better for me. I suffer from anxiety and depression. Fortunately, my husband thrives off high stress “knowledgework.” So now I run his businesses a few hours a week from home, doing some accounting and human resources type stuff. Some people need to see what they make. For those people, if they end up in a cubical career facing an endless stack of invoices to process, taking up a crafty hobby might provide some release. I know a lot of people who knit or woodwork or paint. Others do music - which is more of a temporary creation - but puts beauty into their life that TPS Reports just don’t do. Some cubical dwellers spend their weekends hiking or hunting or boating - they crave the contact with nature. And some move from their work computer to MMORGs - they don’t need the same things. And some work 16 hour days - not because they are slaves to the corporation, but because that is where they find fulfillment. Some people - where ever you are in History - get to do something they love and make a living at it (or, if they are really lucky, they don’t need to make a living). Most people have duties, if you are a farmer and its time to harvest and you don’t feel like it - guess what, you still have sixteen hour days in front of you for the next week or two. Women, in particular, have had a lot of work in their lives - caring for children and feeding people are women’s jobs through most cultures - and those things happen every day and are time consuming. To a large extent, human beings throughout History are responsible for figuring out what they need to be healthy - spiritually, emotionally, physically - and then do their best to work that in. It isn’t always possible - working sixteen hour days in a tenement sweatshop in 1902 or picking cotton in 1853 doesn’t leave a lot of room - but that may be one reason religion has been so important throughout History - it gives you a reason for stopping work and taking some “me time.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/28 "2016-11-03T13:36:40Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > Nature, Mr. Alnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above. Thank-you, Lady Grantham! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/29 "2016-11-03T18:12:20Z")
\*\*Is working a normal job unnatural? \*\* The whole question is an Appeal to Nature fallacy. > **[Appeal to nature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature)** > > An appeal to nature is an argument or rhetorical tactic in which it is proposed that "a thing is good because it is 'natural', or bad because it is 'unnatural'". It is generally considered to be a bad argument because the implicit (unstated) primary premise "What is natural is good" is typically irrelevant, having no cogent meaning in practice, or is an opinion instead of a fact. > For example, it might be argued that polio is good because it is natural. In practice, polio has little to recommend... Man is not separate from Nature. We are just slightly advanced animals and everything that we do, from coding computer programs to sending exploratory space craft into the unknown, is natural for us. Not much different from honey bees making a nest, searching for food and communicating back to the hive. To think otherwise is to perpetuate an almost Biblical viewpoint where Man has dominion over nature, but is not part of nature. There is no separation between Man and Nature. Man is Natural and so is everything we do. We are just a bit more creative than other animals and tend to not poop outdoors, in at least a third of the world anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/30 "2016-11-03T18:37:11Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > \*\*Is working a normal job unnatural? \*\* > > The whole question is an Appeal to Nature fallacy. That is the question at the end of the OP. However, I do think it’s fair to ask about the effects of certain lifestyles. I doubt it’s been good for my physical health to spend so much of my life sitting on my ass in front of computer. It’s been pretty damn good for my financial health though. Maybe being a farmer would have been good for my mental health, maybe not. ‘Unnatural’ isn’t good word to use to understand this though. Rain falling up is unnatural, doing the things humans do isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/31 "2016-11-03T20:24:21Z")
Everything is ‘unnatural’ after the invention of (a) artificial lighting (lightbulbs!) and (b) the production line (that begat the working day/week). Every piece of research on sleep I’ve ever seen says we - not absolutely everyone but most - are suited best to a mid day nap and a shorter night sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/32 "2016-11-04T01:46:53Z")
> [@sara20](#): > > I don’t mean to offend any farmers reading this, but I live in the country around many farms, have a food garden myself, have farmer friends, and my grandmother and father grew up on a farm and told me lots of stories about it. From what I gather many farmers in the past had animals to help feed themselves but it was not a 8 hour job to feed and care for them. The farmers I know do perform “busy work” to keep themselves occupied but work at their own pace and I would not say it is extremely hard work. They do work very hard twice a year like I said. > > As for what’s unnatural you could go back to hunter gatherer, but my point was more if it is unnaturally harmful, physically, emotionally or spiritually. Computers are unnatural, but so is working a night shift, which has been shown to be harmful to ones health long term. That is more what I meant. My mother grew up on a farm with seven brothers and sisters, so there were plenty of people to share the work. In spite of that, not one of those eight kids wanted to be a farmer when they grew up. Live in a small town, maybe, but not be a farmer. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/33 "2016-11-04T02:31:17Z")
Holy crap is the OP out of touch. Two of my uncles were farmers and are the hardest working people I have ever met. They worked sun up to sun down, 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week, close to 365 days a year. Sure there is church and holidays, but these are the few times they get a break. My ~50 hours a week as a professional working 5 days a weeks is super leisurely in comparison. I would rather cut my pay in half than be a farmer and make the same amount as I make now (low six figures). Speaking of which, my uncles did OK. Probably pulled down six figures, maybe as high as 150k or even 250k per annum, but the amount that the whole family (wife, children) worked it wasn’t worth it. Growing up, I actually felt sorry for them because how much they worked. There was no end to it. None of my cousins ended up being farmers. I have to say that I did love visiting the farm, even though it was exhausting (we would help when we were there). As a child it was almost magical the stuff I learned there and the stuff I saw. Very different than the inner city life that I normally experienced. ---
**Author:** ![sara20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@sara20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sara20)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/34 "2016-11-04T04:12:32Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Holy crap is the OP out of touch. Two of my uncles were farmers and are the hardest working people I have ever met. They worked sun up to sun down, 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week, close to 365 days a year. Sure there is church and holidays, but these are the few times they get a break. My ~50 hours a week as a professional working 5 days a weeks is super leisurely in comparison. I would rather cut my pay in half than be a farmer and make the same amount as I make now (low six figures). > > Speaking of which, my uncles did OK. Probably pulled down six figures, maybe as high as 150k or even 250k per annum, but the amount that the whole family (wife, children) worked it wasn’t worth it. Growing up, I actually felt sorry for them because how much they worked. There was no end to it. None of my cousins ended up being farmers. > > I have to say that I did love visiting the farm, even though it was exhausting (we would help when we were there). As a child it was almost magical the stuff I learned there and the stuff I saw. Very different than the inner city life that I normally experienced. What kind of farm did they have? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/35 "2016-11-04T07:11:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ha ha ha ha! > > Oh, wait, were you _serious_? Never heard of weeding? Pest control? Pruning? Hedgelaying? Mending wall? Caring for the oxen/horses? Repairing tools? All that and numerous other daily tasks await a farmer between planting and harvest. Not to mention all the shit you’ve got to do with the stuff you’re growing and raising after you’re done harvesting it, which is often labour-intensive too. Threshing grain, milling or mortaring it, fulling grapes for wine, grinding olives for oil or chestnuts for flour, curing hog meat & leather, chopping sugar cane… Historically the Romans and medieval writers inspired by them divided work between \*labor \*(the back-breaking shit, the word itself referring to pain and suffering) and \*opus \*(mental work, business). Farming was well into _labor_. Peasant was the worst job you could be born into, except for maybe \*actual \*slave. And even then, most slaves were peasants anyway - the bad slave job was in the mines. Professional soldier was the actual cushy job - in peacetime you did fuck all but either keep watch for you boss or travel around looking for some war to join or start ; and in wartime you mostly got to trudge around rapin’, lootin’, burnin’, pillagin’ and rapin’. If you were lucky enough to be a toff, you did all of that from horseback, too ! Well, maybe not the rapin’. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/36 "2016-11-04T15:25:27Z")
> [@sara20](#): > > I was thinking about how 1000 years ago most people were farmers, which seems like a fairly simple stress free life where you only work about twice a year, planting and harvest (if you are not a dairy farmer). People today work every day, all day, in what seems like a modern form of slavery. Is this unnatural? Congratulations on getting your first job!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/37 "2016-11-04T20:24:59Z")
Regardless of our history, it’s pretty clear human psychology is predisposed to enjoying some kind of work – we like having responsibility for something, problem-solving and helping teammates and customers. Unfortunately that’s not the end of the story, as several aspects of many jobs don’t suit our psychology so well. And I would concede that being an employee can present issues, as it can remove you from directly profiting from your labor. Come up with a great idea today? Well maybe at some future time you might get a promotion, but today your pay, conditions etc are exactly the same. Anecdotally though I think jobs are getting more satisfying on average, and having better incentives / feedback. Sent from my Mi-4c using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/38 "2016-11-05T04:57:52Z")
Being a Roman soldier wasn’t a soft job. For one thing, the standard enlistment was 20 years. You spent your time keeping the restless natives in check - and if they were on the opposite side of the Empire you got there by walking - on the beautiful, carefully constructed, straight roads - that you built when you weren’t otherwise busy. The centurion (commander of a hundred) may have had a horse, mostly you walked. Little chance of promotion, small pay, risk of dying - those savages fought back hard, their lives depended on it. Lots of boredom too, and miles away from family and home. Luxurious job! ---
**Author:** ![yo\_han\_go](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yo_han_go/32/130_2.png) [@yo\_han\_go](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yo_han_go)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/39 "2016-11-05T15:12:19Z")
> [@svd678](#): > > Being a Roman soldier wasn’t a soft job. For one thing, the standard enlistment was 20 years. You spent your time keeping the restless natives in check - and if they were on the opposite side of the Empire you got there by walking - on the beautiful, carefully constructed, straight roads - that you built when you weren’t otherwise busy. The centurion (commander of a hundred) may have had a horse, mostly you walked. Little chance of promotion, small pay, risk of dying - those savages fought back hard, their lives depended on it. Lots of boredom too, and miles away from family and home. > Luxurious job! They did get nice pension that could buy a nice chunk of land and dozen of slaves. Or a pub. If they survived and able. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2016, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427/40 "2016-11-07T06:33:58Z")
In my experience it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-working-a-normal-job-unnatural/770427.md?page=1)