# Is World War II turning into a Fairy Tale? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539 "2008-11-13T15:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/21 "2008-11-13T17:29:43Z")
At what point was there ever a nuanced, even-handed treatment of WWII in popular culture? WWII was already about good-guy America vs. bad-guy Hitler during WWII. Specifically, it was about good-guy Donald Duck vs. bad-guy Hitler. I guess you could make a case that _Hogan’s Heroes_ strove to encompass a wider historic perspective, but that’s about it. I think a Japanese soldier may have popped up once on an episode of Gilligan’s Island. Computer games present a simplified view of the war because computer games exist now. The problem itself is not new. Earlier, we only had movies and novels to warp our impressions. It’s not because the war generation is dying off: they were the most invested in the fairy tale to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/22 "2008-11-13T17:33:25Z")
All right, well, what does Australia teach about WWII in schools? What’s the history curriculum like? Seems to me that Australians ought to be learning about it in school. (Of course I say this knowing that the study of history all over the English-speaking world has gone to the dogs, so I guess the answer is going to be rather depressing.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/23 "2008-11-13T17:35:58Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Now fast forward to WWII and you see the decisive action as being on the Eastern Front, but popular culture focusing on the Western Front because of who the combatants there were. But those same popular culture combatants _also_ fought in Africa and the Italian front – and I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen “popular culture” focusing on on of those. There’ve been some good movies set in the Africa campaigns, but it’s been a while since them. And the only thing that comes to mind set in the Italy campaigns is Catch 22. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/24 "2008-11-13T17:39:24Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > All right, well, what does Australia teach about WWII in schools? What’s the history curriculum like? Seems to me that Australians ought to be learning about it in school. I didn’t go to school here so I’m not sure, but they do seem to cover Australian involvement in the Pacific Theatre of WWII in some detail. Gallipoli (WWI) also gets a lot of coverage. Australia is very proud (and rightly so) of their military history and rightly so, but that doesn’t mean the younger generation pays much attention to it in school. > [@Lightray](#): > > But those same popular culture combatants _also_ fought in Africa and the Italian front – and I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen “popular culture” focusing on on of those. There’ve been some good movies set in the Africa campaigns, but it’s been a while since them. And the only thing that comes to mind set in the Italy campaigns is Catch 22. I suspect most of the stuff focusing on the Italian campaign tends to be in the form of “Arthouse” movies that your average punter never sees. It’s a good point though; besides _Battlefield 1942: The Road to Rome_ people my age could be forgiven for realising there even _was_ an Italian Campaign, or that it kicked off in 1943- before D-Day. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/25 "2008-11-13T17:44:00Z")
“At what point was there ever a nuanced, even-handed treatment of WWII in popular culture?” Ever seen the Longest Day? Fascinating to contrast that with Saving Private Ryan as a D-Day Hollywood film. Personally I have never thought of WW2 as a simple battle between good and evil. The Nazis were certainly evil but so were the Soviets who played the major role in defeating them. The European empires in Asia and Africa were also evil in many ways. The Allied policy of deliberately bombing civilian populations in Japan and Germany was also evil IMO. Certainly the Western Allies were the lesser evil compared to the Nazis but the Soviets were just as bad if not worse. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/26 "2008-11-13T17:44:23Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Sort of, yes. I think the American involvement in WWII has been overexposed in the media and it’s time for some of the other players to have a turn in the spotlight. That’s just my opinion and I expect it’s a minority one, but there you go. > . Alright, whatever dude. The “media” is not some monjolithic entity that must be fair and evenhanded in its creation of stories based on real events. The reason the US’s involvement is emphasized is that lots of media is made for a US audience. Your rant is really no different than the rant of someone who wants more Firefly episodes or wishes their favorite band didn’t break up. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/27 "2008-11-13T17:44:43Z")
WWII was hardly good vs evil. The Allies had their own skeletons, the fighting in the Pacific was over _colonies_ famine was induced in India by the diversions of food supplies the Europe. I would agree that WWII has become the “feel good war” in the states. How an event is remembered is hardly an accurate reflection of how it was percieved. British culture rarely remembers the effort in the Far East, yet at the time it was seen as a war to preserve empire. Since the empire was in anyway lost a few short years later, not something worth remembering. Remember the European War. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/28 "2008-11-13T17:53:27Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > If you watch most of the documentaries on the [del]Hitler[/del] History Channel; they tend to be about the _American_ involvement in WWII. Ditto computer games, ditto movies. > > I don’t expect every single thing about WWII to be a completely objective, all-inclusive coverage of the subject. What I’d like is an acknowledgement what WWII was a lot more complex than the US (with the British sending some commandos and a couple of squadrons of aircraft to help) fighting Japan and Germany because Japan bombed Pearl Harbour and Hitler was bad while the Russians fought the Germans as well for no adequately explained reason. > > You’re right that WWII is probably one of the most recorded and documented conflicts in history (along with the Vietnam War), but most people are never going to go to the trouble of looking at any of the primary (or even reliable secondary) sources and soak their history up via osmosis. There is _tons_ of acknowledgment of this. Read a book sometime. When you’re talking about popular culture you can’t really expect American films made in America primarily for an American audience, or American television programs made in America primarily for an American audience or American video games made in America for Americans to focus on things like Australia or Canada’s involvement in the war or the specifics of the U.K.'s involvement. That sort of depth isn’t really the goal of mass media, looking to mass media for nuanced and detailed coverage of a topic is kind of foolish. Although in defense of the H-Channel, while they are very American-centric some of their programs have been devoted entirely to the Battle of Britain and such, which is clearly British-focused. The last COD game I played was the third, I believe. It’s worth noting that in Call of Duty 3 there are _four campaigns_, **one** is focused on the Americans. One is focused on the British, one on the Canadians, and one on the _Polish_ forces who fought in France. So that’s pretty good for mass media. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/29 "2008-11-13T17:53:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Alright, whatever dude. > > The “media” is not some monjolithic entity that must be fair and evenhanded in its creation of stories based on real events. The reason the US’s involvement is emphasized is that lots of media is made for a US audience. Your rant is really no different than the rant of someone who wants more Firefly episodes or wishes their favorite band didn’t break up. Please. Lack of more Firefly episodes or favorite bands breaking up do not continue to affect modern politics – which the events of WWII most certainly do. I’d like people affecting decisions in the world to be at least somewhat educated as to what occurred in the past. People are easy enough to convince that “We have never been at war with Eastasia” as it is (witness Hollywood’s propaganda for “Uncle Joe” Stalin in WWII), without ignorance of the past making it _easier_. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/30 "2008-11-13T18:12:20Z")
The new movie [Australia](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455824/plotsummary) is partly about the Japanese bombing of Darwin. OTOH, it’s also a western about spunky cattle baroness [del]Barbara Stanwyk[/del] Nicole Kidman and rough-hewn cowboy [del]Randolph Scott[/del] Hugh Jackman taking on another cattle boss, [del]Burl Ives[/del] Bryan Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/31 "2008-11-13T18:13:10Z")
As I was playing COD: WAW last night it struck me (as it always does playing these games) that I was being entertained from recreating some of the most horrible things that have ever happened to the world. That made start to design a game in my head where you are trying to escape the WTC collapsing. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/32 "2008-11-13T18:17:24Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Sort of, yes. I think the American involvement in WWII has been overexposed in the media and it’s time for some of the other players to have a turn in the spotlight. That’s just my opinion and I expect it’s a minority one, but there you go.. The media, in this case film studios, and television networks are for-profit enterprises. They produce things that will make a profit. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/33 "2008-11-13T18:18:39Z")
> [@TJVM](#): > > 1. America’s direct involvement was relatively brief, and also, had a definite begining and end – Pearl Harbor to V-E Day. (The reality was more complicated, of course, but for storytelling / folklore purposes it’s nice to have a neat beginning, middle, and end). Relatively brief? We were there for over half the damn war! ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/34 "2008-11-13T18:18:47Z")
When I was in school, none of my history classes covered World War II in any detail … if we got to that point at all. We would get up through the Great Depression, and then breeze on to “and then World War II happened,” with a strong hint of “ask your grandpa.” The trouble is, it’s so hard to depict World War II in a way that shows the subtleties of global war in the various far-flung theaters (ha!). Since about World War I, when army gear has usually been green or camouflage-colored, all soldiers look the same and only the background and weapons change. A smart person, or a military buff, could tell the uniforms and helmets and guns apart, but the average citizen probably looks at the film’s visual vocabulary. Trenches = World War I. Jungle = Vietnam. Desert = Middle East (at least recently; used to be Afrika Corps). Airplanes over water = WWII Pacific theater. Airplanes over land = WWII European theater. Submarines = WWII. Battleships = WWII. Beach landing = Normandy. Looks like it was shot in Spain = Italy. Looks like it was shot in Italy = Mussolini. John Wayne = WWII Pacific Theater. 😃 That makes it hard to sell films about the wider scope of WWII: North Africa, Burma, Crete, India, the Battle of the Atlantic, etc. Prior to U.S. involvement in World War II, most of the battles make poor stories (from an Allied point of view). There were heroic withdrawals, desperate retreats, foolish stands, stalwart resistance, and gritty stalemates, but not very many _satisfying endings._ Are audiences satisfied with a movie that ends with, “Well, we got most of the BEF out of France before the Nazi war machine crushed us. Tea and medals all round! Hurrah!” I don’t know; it’d be a hard sell. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/35 "2008-11-13T18:23:47Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > As I was playing COD: WAW last night it struck me (as it always does playing these games) that I was being entertained from recreating some of the most horrible things that have ever happened to the world. That made start to design a game in my head where you are trying to escape the WTC collapsing. Yeah, The one comment that rings out from players is how great it is to use the flame thrower. Think about it. A thrill from simulating the deliberate burning another human being alive with a chemical flame. A weapon that is so horrible it has been since banned by many nations. I wonder how much fun the real marines had doing this to other human beings. Not only did they get the “thrill” of the sight and the “coolness” of the sounds of the agonized screams but they also got to experience the “awesome” stench of burnt human flesh. I know it is just a game and it won’t turn people into psychos or inhuman killers but still I get uncomfortable that this is a selling point for entertainment and I too am facsinated enough to want to try it out. Has WWII become a fairy tale? Yep. The horror of the war is now entertainment and the reality of it is gone. A product of the distance of time I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/36 "2008-11-13T18:26:42Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Most of Pop Culture stuff on WWI (with the exception of _Blackadder Goes Forth_, obviously) is also reasonably accurate, IMHO- it’s certainly more “rounded” than the stuff currently coming out about WWII (again, IMHO) if that makes sense. I’m not so sure. For example, which member of the Entente powers suffered the greatest losses in World War I? You’d never know [the answer to that question](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties) from popular culture. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/37 "2008-11-13T18:28:44Z")
To me, one of the biggest tragedies of American understanding of WW2 is the complete ignorance of what happened in the Eastern theater. If the US fully understood the staggering losses that the USSR suffered to help defeat Germany, and how absurdly little the US sacrificed in comparison, post-war diplomacy may have gone better and the Cold War may have been ameliorated or avoided completely. [bar chart of WW2 casualties by country](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_War_II_Casualties2.svg) I really think that Americans think we sacrificed more than everyone else in WW2, and that’s just a shame. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/38 "2008-11-13T18:40:36Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Yeah, The one comment that rings out from players is how great it is to use the flame thrower. Think about it. A thrill from simulating the deliberate burning another human being alive with a chemical flame. A weapon that is so horrible it has been since banned by many nations. > > I wonder how much fun the real marines had doing this to other human beings. Not only did they get the “thrill” of the sight and the “coolness” of the sounds of the agonized screams but they also got to experience the “awesome” stench of burnt human flesh. Yeah, I was just telling my coworker how great the flamethrower is in the game and that he’ll enjoy using it. And the people being burned alive is rendered quite nicely. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/39 "2008-11-13T18:50:52Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I’m not so sure. For example, which member of the Entente powers suffered the greatest losses in World War I? You’d never know [the answer to that question](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties) from popular culture. I was aware of that. But isn’t it more important which of the Entente powers **inflicted** most casualties. After all, the Russians dying in large numbers didn’t win the war. It arguably did prevent it being lost, as the Russians repeatedly launched offensives (as did the British later) at moments contrary to their own tactical best interests in order to relieve pressure on the French army. What is stunning about the Soviet contribution to WWII isn’t just the level of casualties they suffered, but the overwhelming role they had in inflicting casualties on the Wehrmacht. And that is how modern wars (US Civil War, WWI and WWII) tended to be won - place the enemy in a position where he was forced to eat his seed corn by putting children into uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539/40 "2008-11-13T20:09:49Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Please. Lack of more Firefly episodes or favorite bands breaking up do not continue to affect modern politics – which the events of WWII most certainly do. > > I’d like people affecting decisions in the world to be at least somewhat educated as to what occurred in the past. People are easy enough to convince that “We have never been at war with Eastasia” as it is (witness Hollywood’s propaganda for “Uncle Joe” Stalin in WWII), without ignorance of the past making it _easier_. Wait a minute–you think the fact that Saving Private Ryan doesn’t mention Australians means that people who make decisions will be less informed about the world? That is an even nuttier position than the OP is taking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-world-war-ii-turning-into-a-fairy-tale/472539.md?page=3)