# Is zero in mathematics the same as zero in physics?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 16, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206 "2022-03-16T19:54:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/1 "2022-03-16T19:54:08Z")
In mathematics:
1 minus 1 equals zero
1 apple minus 1 apple equals zero
In physics:
1 apple minus 1 apple cannot equal zero, because it’s impossible for two apples to be identical.
It seems like in physics, zero should be defined as the limit that two objects can be identical. Maybe the [Planck length](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length)?
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/2 "2022-03-16T19:57:32Z")
An apple isn’t a unit in anything - physics or maths. It’s a fruit. If you decide it’s OK to treat apples as units, then you have accepted that their differences don’t matter.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/3 "2022-03-16T19:58:33Z")
But 1 apple minus 1 apple IS zero, because you’re not just taking away an apple that’s the same size as the original; the original apple is the apple you’re taking away. And every object is, if nothing else, identical to itself.
There are also some objects, such as electrons, that really are all perfectly identical.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/4 "2022-03-16T20:01:07Z")
However, zero apples is the same thing as zero oranges
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### Author:  [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/5 "2022-03-16T20:01:44Z")
> [@Mangetout](#):
>
> n apple isn’t a unit in anything - physics or maths.
I understand the concept of zero in maths. I don’t understand the concept of zero in physics. I like to read links.
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### Author:  [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/6 "2022-03-16T20:02:21Z")
Countable objects like apples are treated singluarly. It’s a little more clear if you can use something more conceptual like dollars.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/7 "2022-03-16T20:05:21Z")
Yeah there are lots of cases where you end up in real zero in phyics. E.g. electron positron annihilation (as poster above points out electrons, unlike apples are considered interchangable, so after the electron-positron collision you have zero particles):
> **[Electron–positron annihilation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron%E2%80%93positron_annihilation#/media/File:ElectronPositronAnnihilation.svg)**
>
> Pages for logged out editors learn more
>
> Onia
> Electron–positron annihilation occurs when an electron (e−) and a positron (e+, the electron's antiparticle) collide. At low energies, the result of the collision is the annihilation of the electron and positron, and the creation of energetic photons:
> At high energies, other particles, such as B mesons or the W and Z bosons, can be created. All processes must satisfy a number of conservation laws, including:
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/8 "2022-03-16T20:06:42Z")
The zero of mathematics is used in physics - it’s not completely separate - the zero velocity value of a non-moving object is a mathematical zero in the sense that you can add values to it, multiply it with other properties such as mass to get the momentum - and when the velocity is zero, multiplying it in this way works the same as it does in maths, because it _is_ maths
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/9 "2022-03-16T20:07:26Z")
I don’t see a difference either. 2 grams - 2 grams is 0 grams. You can verify this by experiment on a scale.
As Chronos said it’s the same if you have an apple on the scale, and then remove it.
You may be imagining a balancing scale with two _different_ apples, and noting that they are not equal weight. But you would be wrong to write,
1 \text{ Apple} \> 1 \text{ Apple}
The correct _interpretation_ is
\text{Apple}\_L \> \text{Apple}\_R
~Max
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### Author:  [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/10 "2022-03-16T20:17:30Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#):
>
> I don’t understand the concept of zero in physics. I like to read links.
What’s an example of zero in physics that you don’t understand? “1 apple minus 1 apple” is not a physics equation will well defined meaning, so it seems your starting with misconceptions about a lot more than zero?
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### Author:  [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/11 "2022-03-16T20:22:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#):
>
> and when the velocity is zero, multiplying it in this way works the same as it does in maths, because it _is_ maths
Natural units are based on definitions (e.g. the speed of light equals one). But because it _is_ maths doesn’t mean it accurately describes the natural universe.
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/12 "2022-03-16T20:24:14Z")
I guess you could say that, even if you take away the apple, there will still be little bits left behind? A forensic team could maybe tell that an apple had been present. So, 1 apple - 1 apple = 0.0001 apples?
Maybe that’s what the OP is getting at.
I mean, there’s no such thing as zero velocity, really. It’s velocity relative to something else, and even that might not be exactly zero at the molecular level.
Anyway, just my thoughts about what the OP may mean when asking about zero in physics.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/13 "2022-03-16T20:27:09Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> I guess you could say that, even if you take away the apple, there will still be little bits left behind? A forensic team could maybe tell that an apple had been present. So, 1 apple - 1 apple = 0.0001 apples?
That is to say, removing an apple is only an approximation of subtraction.
~Max
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/14 "2022-03-16T20:28:26Z")
Sure, that works as a possible explanation of what the OP is after.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/15 "2022-03-16T20:28:51Z")
Is it a spherical apple, or a point apple?
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/16 "2022-03-16T20:31:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> That is to say, removing an apple is only an approximation of subtraction.
Then again, everything in physics, or at least in the human study of it, is only an approximation.
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### Author:  [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/17 "2022-03-16T20:57:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> That is to say, removing an apple is only an approximation of subtraction.
Not really. Removing an apple is only an approximation of zero.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/18 "2022-03-16T20:58:40Z")
That makes no sense. Zero isn’t an operation, removal of an object is.
> [@EastUmpqua](#):
>
> 1 apple minus 1 apple cannot equal zero, because it’s impossible for two apples to be identical.
1 apple minus 1 apple _does_ equal zero, but it’s virtually impossible to **accurately** “minus 1 apple” in real life. Because, as you say, ‘maths don’t **accurately** describe the universe.’
~Max
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### Author:  [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/19 "2022-03-16T21:07:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> That makes no sense. Zero isn’t an operation, removal of an object is.
I’m having a hard time understanding how to apply the maths concept of zero to physics, given the [Uncertainty principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle).
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### Author:  [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-zero-in-mathematics-the-same-as-zero-in-physics/961206/20 "2022-03-16T21:08:31Z")
I assume any integer or rational number is trouble for you then.
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