# Isaiah 9:6 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307 "2000-12-26T23:49:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307/41 "2001-01-03T01:25:36Z")
(This is a hijack, but what the hell, it’s my thread.) Did the Romans really keep excellent records on this sort of thing? I confess I have no idea. It certainly doesn’t strike me as impossible that the Roman Empire in that era would have had some sort of case docket or police record or what you will (_The Senate and People of Rome v. Jesus of Nazareth_), but on the other hand, it wouldn’t shock me to learn that the Romans _didn’t_ have anything of the sort. Anyone know just what sorts of demographic and judicial records the Romans likely kept? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307/42 "2001-01-03T01:46:34Z")
The Romans were big advocates of capital punishment of rebelling non-citizens. After Crassus defeated the Sparticani, he crucified 6000 of them. Unless the person was important somehow, I don’t think the governor really had to explain himself to Rome…that was what they were sent out to do…keep the natives quiet. Of course, if you acted like Pilate and slaughtered a whole crowd of unarmed Samaratian pilgrims, you’d need a good reason…but individual criminals didn’t get extensive records attached to their cases. They were lucky if they got trials. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307/43 "2001-01-03T02:33:43Z")
From this University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill [web site](http://www.unc.edu/depts/history/ancient/dissertations.html), comes the following: > [@](#): > > Tom’s master’s thesis entitled _Diocletianic Census Inscriptions from the Aegean Islands and Asia Minor_ cataloged, edited and analyzed a group of fragmentary Roman census records that constitute an important body of evidence for studies of the late Roman economy, tax system and population. Unfortunately there’s not enough information here on these “fragmentary Roman census records” to tell if they have information on individuals, or at least families (“Joseph, son of Jacob [or Heli, as the case may be], resident of Nazareth, occupation carpenter, married with one male child”) or merely aggregate information about provinces or districts or towns (“number of carpenters in Judaea: 8,317”). (That particular group of fragmentary records also would appear to date from later in Roman history than the 1st century C.E.) There might have been tax rolls which might have provided information for at least some individuals, but I suspect only property owners would be recorded there, and most people probably wouldn’t show up. Despite my flip remark above about “_The Senate and People of Rome v. Jesus of Nazareth_”, I suspect the Captain is correct about Roman judicial records. Roman provincial governors–especially in Judaea–executed too many people to make it likely they would have any particular record of any one of them, especially if we’re talking non-citizen rabble. What about the Sanhedrin? Would there have been records of its actions? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307/44 "2001-01-03T03:48:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*zev- you make some good points. Which verse in Gen 34, by the way? \*\* 34:3. > [@](#): > > \*\* > In olden days, oftimes, when they wanted to clearly note a young girl as a “virgin”, they would instead use the word “maiden”, even tho it did not nessesarily mean virgin, as it was more polite. Does Isaiah ever use “Besulah”? \*\* Yes. He uses it in 62:5. He also uses the plural in 23:4, 23:12 and 37:20. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Honestly, my Biblical Greek is very poor- true, i can sometimes puzzle out a verse, but I rely on other sources- and my source said “parthenos cannot be mistranslated- it mans virgin intactos”. A dictionary agreed with this- but it was not an exaustive dictionary- so i guess it is NOT impossible for “parthenos” to include non-virgins- within MY frame of expertise. If there was a Biblical greek expert around… > > \*\* Did you show your source Genesis 34:3? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307/45 "2001-01-03T06:29:43Z")
I just wanted to say that I’m not surprised you found a problem in the various versions of Isaiah. I’m a non-Christian, non-Jew indulging in a little Biblical scholarship lately, and I (by coincidence) happened to reading Isaiah in several versions when I discovered this thread. All I have to add is that the English-language translations of this book seem specifically “selected” to support later Christian doctrine. The messiest example of this I’ve found so far is “Lucifer” in Isaiah. According to the Hebrew Names Version of the Bible, this name is “Heylel,” which translates as “The Shining One.” In the context of the passage, it seems to be a title for the King of Assyria. “Heylel,” from what I can gather, became “lucifer” in the Vulgate, which means Light-Bearer. Unfortunately, the Roman pagans had a god “Lucifer,” the personified morning star. The Jews, according to my roommate who was raised in a very orthodox family, have never had a concept of an Archfiend (although they do have numerous demons, and an angel on God’s payroll named Satan). The Devil never appears in the Old Testament, except by this mangled translation. This is only one of many examples I’ve found in this book alone of creative translation. My advice be careful to take into account the biases of the translators when reading this stuff. ``` Thanks, Hamish ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isaiah-9-6/47307.md?page=2)