# “ISIL isn’t Islamic”???? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286 "2014-09-12T14:10:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/61 "2014-09-12T23:49:54Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The President’s speech last night did not reflect a relatively liberal war strategy? > > No boots on the ground, building coalition, calling an Islamic army not Islamic, etc… Yes, I see your point. “No boots on the ground” = no dead American soldiers = bad liberal policy “Building coalition” = international cooperation and support = bad liberal policy “calling an Islamic army not Islamic” = not blaming one of the world’s largest religions for politically motivated terrorism = bad liberal policy If only Bush Jr. was still around, with his consummate wisdom! :rolleyes: > [@Stringbean](#): > > Would anyone expect such a speech from Bush Jr? Certainly not. I would expect a speech that was a pack of lies about WMDs as a fake rationale for a completely unnecessary war that was already preplanned by the Project for the New American Century and which cost more than 4500 American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, and precipitated this whole entire mess in the first place, first with al Qaeda in Iraq, then ISIL. **That’s** what I’d expect from Presidents Cheney and Bush Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/62 "2014-09-13T00:24:49Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The President’s speech last night did not reflect a relatively liberal war strategy? Quite so, quite so ! Hear hear ! Like Lincoln’s ! Or FDR’s ! Or, or… LBJ’s ! Leftists are such pansies. Wouldn’t know a good quagmire war from a pot-fueled orgy in the mud, amirite ? > [@](#): > > Would anyone expect such a speech from Bush Jr? No. But then nobody would expect a cogent speech of any sort from Bush Jr, so… ---
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/63 "2014-09-13T00:57:38Z")
Well, the reason the President said that ISIL is not Islamic is because according to him, “No religion promotes the murder of innocents.” However, the only way to know what a religion promotes or doesn’t promote is to read the holy book of that religion from cover to cover. I’ve never read the Qu’ran, but I’ve heard people say that that the Qu’ran says in several places that Muslims can kill “infidels” for refusing to convert to Islam. If this is true, then President Obama is wrong and ISIL is most definitely Islamic. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/64 "2014-09-13T01:22:21Z")
This issue isn’t if they are Islamic or not, it’s how they perceive Islam and it’s orders. Faith has always been multifaceted, some layers are secular, traditional or extremist. Now, in the case of ISIL (in which the L stands for Levant, which includes not only Syria but some parts of Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and a province of Turkey, Hatay), these people are most certainly Islamic and they believe that what they do will count as a reward one day. Obama calling ISIL not Islamic, only made him look funny and further angered the militants, being stigmatised by such a statement. Although what he meant was that ordinary Islam is nothing like the brainwashed Jihadis fighting and struggling for their “allah”. These kinds of terrorist organisations spread hatred all over the World and act as an agent of Islamophobia. Obama’s intention was preventing this… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/65 "2014-09-13T01:23:12Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If the left wants to call Timothy McVeigh a “Christian,” despite the fact that he did not kill in the name of Jesus, they can in no way suggest ISIL is not Islamic. One is clearly acting on behalf of religious motivation and yet they get a secular free pass. I’m pretty sure McVeigh had been raised Catholic, but by the time he did Oklahoma City, he wasn’t religious at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/66 "2014-09-13T01:27:42Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > It would seem apparent to me that when a group commits atrocities in the name of Mohammed they are “Islamic” in some form or fashion. That’s not how they feel nor is it the way any Muslims would feel. Nevertheless, yes they are clearly an Islamic organization. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/67 "2014-09-13T01:33:11Z")
Anyway, it seems to me that this is more just propaganda than it is analysis by the President. I think he also said something about how they claim to want to set up an Islamic State, but that’s a lie and they really have no purpose other than destruction or something like that. Portraying your enemies as nihilistic monsters is a good way to get people to hate them, and since the purpose of the President’s speech was to stir up the population against ISIL and justify attacking them… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/68 "2014-09-13T01:35:57Z")
I guess by the standards of some folks here, I am a vegetarian. A vegetarian who had a 8 ounce steak for dinner tonight. But who are you to judge how good a vegetarian I am? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/69 "2014-09-13T01:46:38Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > For President Obama to assert that ISIL is not Islamic is a lot like saying “The Mafia Isn’t Italian.” What Obama said is not true. However, he is the President of the United States. Sometimes, for diplomatic reasons, he must say things that aren’t true. Dubya made similar statements about Al Queda. Past Presidents have said untrue things for diplomatic reasons. So will future presidents. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/70 "2014-09-13T01:51:43Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Witnessing. > > ‘Obama is teh worst!’ What kind of worst is teh worst? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/71 "2014-09-13T01:55:14Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So, is the LRA a Christian organization? Who are the LRA? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/72 "2014-09-13T01:57:28Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > What kind of worst is teh worst? Pwnd[.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teh) ETA: [LRA.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army) . ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/73 "2014-09-13T02:02:13Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > They kill in the name of Jesus, so yes. This is a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist matter :). I, as usual, come down on the descriptivist side. That is, if someone makes some connection, however trivial, to following Jesus Christ, and at the same time declares themselves a Christian, I’ll go along with the description. Phelps? Christian. LRA? Christian. Pedophile priests? Christian. Lucrezia Borgia? Christian. For similar reasons, I’ll consider IS\* to be Islamic. HOWEVER: I know that some folks prefer a prescriptivist approach, an approach by which Phelps, LRA, etc. aren’t Christian. While I don’t think that’s the best way to use language, I appreciate the point they’re making: they’re suggesting that if you fall sufficiently short of a religion’s ideal, or if you espouse beliefs sufficiently distant from the mainstream religion’s beliefs, you’re no longer part of that religion. Again, it’s not a convention I prefer to follow. Personally, I think it makes more sense to consider IS\* to be Islamic. But I get that other folks do like the convention for its implicit moral condemnation of certain people, and using that convention is certainly defensible. - That wasn’t an asterisk, that was a wildcard. ---
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/74 "2014-09-13T02:05:12Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > Who are the LRA? LRA stands for “Lord’s Resistance Army” and it is the name of a militant organization in Uganda led by Joseph Kony. Whether or not they are guilty of the atrocities the western media has accused them of is a matter of dispute in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/75 "2014-09-13T02:09:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I guess by the standards of some folks here, I am a vegetarian. A vegetarian who had a 8 ounce steak for dinner tonight. But who are you to judge how good a vegetarian I am? Well, pretty much. I don’t have a problem calling ISIL a Muslim group, any more than I have a problem calling the crusaders a Christian group, or the Zealots of the first century a Jewish group, even though they all did a bunch of nasty stuff that their respective religions condemned. You can certainly say they practiced bad theology, or that you think their interpretation of the religion that they use to justify the stuff they did was wrong, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t/weren’t religious groups. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/76 "2014-09-13T02:48:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If the left wants to call Timothy McVeigh a “Christian,” despite the fact that he did not kill in the name of Jesus, they can in no way suggest ISIL is not Islamic. His association with the Christian Identity movement is known. And a Christian is perfectly capable of killing for other reasons than “Jesus” anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/77 "2014-09-13T02:48:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist matter :). I, as usual, come down on the descriptivist side. > > That is, if someone makes some connection, however trivial, to following Jesus Christ, and at the same time declares themselves a Christian, I’ll go along with the description. Phelps? Christian. LRA? Christian. Pedophile priests? Christian. Lucrezia Borgia? Christian. For similar reasons, I’ll consider IS\* to be Islamic. Descriptivism and self-identification are two different things, though. Descriptivism considers what everyone thinks. It’s perfectly possible to claim to be something and yet the consensus be that you are wrong or lying. I can, for example, call myself “pro-life” because I am against the death penalty, yet people would pretty much agree I’m not really pro-life. The problem with self-identification is that it can make the term itself meaningless. If anyone can call themselves Muslim, then how can you make statements about what Islam believes? How can you discuss the religion at all? Everyone misuses the No True Scotsman fallacy. It’s not just not including people with certain characteristics. It relies on a previously established definition that is then altered in order to prove an argument. You must start with defining Scotsman. The classic form is as follows: Definition: A Scotsman is any person who lives in Scotland. Claim: No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. Counter: John is a Scotsman, and he puts sugar on his porridge. Reinforced claim: Yeah, but John is not a true Scotsman. A true Scostman doesn’t put sugar on his porridge. The fallacy is changing that claim into a definition. It doesn’t apply if you definition from the start included that definition. * * * Also, ignoring all this, Obama didn’t lie, even if he does categorize ISIS/ISIL as Islamic. He made it clear what meant with his statement. He was making a rhetorical point, like when someone says that Christian Scientists are neither Christian nor scientist. A lie requires an attempt to deceive, and the context indicates that he clearly was not intending to deceive. His comment only makes sense if you know that ISIL/ISIS claim to be Islamic. The truth vs. a lie is a false dichotomy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/78 "2014-09-13T02:57:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > His association with the Christian Identity movement is known. He didn’t really have any association with the Christian Identity movement beyond having met Andreas Strassmeir, the head of Elohim City’s security, at a gun show, where they agreed that the government was just horrible, and having called him the day of the bombing, hoping that the other man would hide him. But there’s no evidence that he shared religious beliefs with Christian Identity. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/79 "2014-09-13T03:12:26Z")
The LRA is a Christian military movement trying to establish a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments in Eastern Africa. That, or they are a particularly nasty group of would-be warlords, petty bandits and kidnapped children led by an insane prophet that have had taken full advantage of some local civil wars to raise havoc on civilians in the relatively ungoverned borderlands. Cloaked in pseudo-Christian mysticism, their real agenda is deeply steeped in local tribal politics. It’s nearly an exact analogy, except at different scale. > [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > LRA stands for “Lord’s Resistance Army” and it is the name of a militant organization in Uganda led by Joseph Kony. Whether or not they are guilty of the atrocities the western media has accused them of is a matter of dispute in my mind. An LRA denialist? What WILL they come up with next? On a global scale, they are more of a mosquito than an elephant, but you definitely don’t want them in your neighborhood. The idea that they are anything but bad news would be laughable, except that it is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286/80 "2014-09-13T03:15:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He didn’t really have any association with the Christian Identity movement beyond having met Andreas Strassmeir, the head of Elohim City’s security, at a gun show, where they agreed that the government was just horrible, and having called him the day of the bombing, hoping that the other man would hide him. But there’s no evidence that he shared religious beliefs with Christian Identity. No, there’s quite a bit of evidence, such as his obsession with _The Turner Diaries_, a very CI-centric book; it’s just generally pretended otherwise since in an overwhelmingly Christian country like America most people prefer to pretend that Christianity can do no wrong. Looking at his Wiki page I notice that the very mention of his connection to the Christian Identity movement has been conveniently disappeared. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isil-isn-t-islamic/698286.md?page=5)