# Isildur: tragic hero or feckless wanker? (Or, yet another Tolkien thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 14, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041 "2009-09-14T16:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/21 "2009-09-15T17:02:12Z")
Besides, the continual conferences, meetings and planning sessions over seven years of war make it very unlikely that the Elves would or could have hid much from the landed Numenorians. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/22 "2009-09-15T17:23:57Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Besides, the continual conferences, meetings and planning sessions over seven years of war make it very unlikely that the Elves would or could have hid much from the landed Numenorians. What makes you think the Elves knew all the intricacies of Ring-lore at that point? Admittedly, Sauron went to the Elves of Eregion to learn some elements of the craft. But clearly he had outstripped them, as he was able to introduce elements into all 19 of the lesser Great Rings – even the Elven Rings he never touched-- that they did not know about; this seems only natural, as he was an angel and they were not. Also, he had slaind Cerebrimbor, who surely knew more about Ring magic than anyone else in Middle-earth. I can easily believe that the Elves were not fully aware of the dangerous potential of the Ring until the Alliance had occupied Baradur and had a chance to go over Sauron’s books of lore; and that may have taken a while. Thus the conversation between Isildur and Elrond may have gone something like this: Elrond: Listen, Isildur, you should probably destroy that Ring you took off Sauron’s corpse. Isildur: Why? E: Because it might be dangerous. I: I get that you think that. I’m asking why you think it might be dangerous. E: Well, I’m not really sure. But you never know with Sauron. I: Are you saying Sauron isn’t really dead? Because I wouldn’t worry about that. I had his corpse decapitated and dismembered, and the separate parts cremated individually, and the ashes scattered in separate spots. And I pissed in the pot holding the ashes that used to be his head. E: So you were worried about him coming back too? I: No, I just hate him. He murdered my father and brother, remember. Anyway, given that Sauron is, by calculation, quadruple-dead, isn’t the Ring just a bauble at this point? A pretty, pretty bauble which I would hate to give up? E: You know I don’t like the way you’re talking about the Ring. I: Do you like the way I’m handling my sword? E: Even less. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/23 "2009-09-15T17:45:49Z")
Sauron went to Eregion to _ensnare_ the elves, not to be instructed. He played on their desire to halt the decay of the world and carefully guided them in the creation of the rings. Now, while he was in Eregion at times, he wasn’t always in Eregion. He left to craft the one ring after the three were made. he only came in force to Eregion when he realized the elves had removed their rings (handed out by Celebrimbor). Remember Elrond moved to relieve Eregion and wound up founding Rivendell. So Gil-Galad must have had some communication with the ring smiths. Since all the smiths were presumably killed in the sacking of the city any new ring lore would have been scanty and pieced together by Sauruman who eventually became a hoarder of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/24 "2009-09-15T17:47:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I: Are you saying Sauron isn’t really dead? Because I wouldn’t worry about that. I had his corpse decapitated and dismembered, and the separate parts cremated individually, and the ashes scattered in separate spots. And I pissed in the pot holding the ashes that used to be his head. YOU IDIOT! Only when Sauron’s ashes come into contact with the waste of a royal can he be reborn! You’ve doomed us all! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/25 "2009-09-15T17:57:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > YOU IDIOT! > > Only when Sauron’s ashes come into contact with the waste of a royal can he be reborn! You’ve doomed us all! The piss of the king is the piss of Armageddon. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/26 "2009-09-16T01:59:41Z")
Then let’s hope Arwen isn’t into golden showers. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/27 "2009-09-16T03:13:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I: No, I just hate him. He murdered my father and brother, remember. Anyway, given that Sauron is, by calculation, quadruple-dead… I am sorry. I woud love to make a substantive contribution to this thread. But when I got to this bit of imaginary dialogue, all the comments I’d thought of as I read earl;ier posts wee wiped out of my mind by a line that insisted on suggesting itself… “Hello, my name is Isuldur Montoya…” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/28 "2009-09-16T03:54:38Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > We now know that was a groundless fear. Again, he erred. Yeah, like we’re gonna believe facile denials of the Elvish-Maiar Conspiracy coming from **Elendil’s Heir!** :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/29 "2009-09-16T05:04:13Z")
Let’s take it outside, bub. :: draws Anduril :: ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/30 "2009-09-16T13:38:54Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I think you’re wrong here. Even though Isildur’s account of the ring had been lost, Denethor, Boromir and Faramir had a pretty good idea of what it was. They could only have got that knowledge from the records of the war of the last alliance. Come to think of it, how did they know? Because Isildur himself, when writing about the Ring, clearly had no idea of its real power, so it couldn’t have been through him. The Elves knew; they must have, having heard Sauron when he proclaimed the inscription, and having taken definitive steps to hide the Three from him. Essentially from the moment of its creation, at least some of the Elves knew and feared the Ring. Denethor was a pupil of Saruman’s when he (Denethor) was young, just as Faramir was a pupil of Gandalf’s. Boromir never had all that much interest in lore, so presumably whatever he knew prior to the Council of Elrond came from Denethor. Certainly Saruman was not a reliable source during Denethor’s lifetime, since he had long been pursuing his own agenda. Wait a minute; now I’m all confused. The Istari (i.e. wizards) appeared in Middle Earth early in the Third Age, didn’t they? Why were they sent if not to guard against the Ring being recovered by Sauron? And if that’s the case, why didn’t all of them know all about it, at least up to the point that it was lost in the river? I’m not a Tolkien scholar; can someone straighten me out? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/31 "2009-09-16T13:52:51Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!;11561459Wait a minute; now I’m all confused. The Istari (i.e. wizards) appeared in Middle Earth early in the Third Age, didn’t they? Why were they sent if not to guard against the Ring being recovered by Sauron? And if that’s the case, why didn’t all of them know all about it, at least up to the point that it was lost in the river?[/QUOTE] It’s pretty well implied that Isildur did not understand the power of the Ring and didn’t use it. I don’t the Elves really understood that the Ring very nearly _was_ Sauron. They knew its power, but probably assumed it was only a magic ring. They presumably didn’t think anyone short of another Sauron could rule them through it. I don’t think anyone except the Istari (and well, the power of Valinor generally) understood Sauron’s level of power, nor that he had survived, until well after he was regaining strength. I would guess that Saruman and/or Gandalf realized that, as a Maiar himself, Sauron could tie his life to a solid object. This is, after all, similar to how Olorin and Curunir became semi-mortal human men. While the Elves knew a lot, particularly the Noldorin, they also never really understood the limits of the Maiar. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/32 "2009-09-16T13:53:37Z")
The ring was considered lost and it had been for 1500 years before the Istari ever showed up. Don’t forget that Sauron was going to win even without the ring. The Istari were there bolster the defence against his remaining minions, to slow him down if needed and marshal what was left of the free people of Middle Earth. Gandalf himself says that so long as something green can grow he will not have failed completely _even if Sauron_ throws down Minas Tirith. The fear, once the ring was found, was that Sauron’s already overwhelming might would reach a point that no possible mortal resistance could thwart him. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/33 "2009-09-16T13:55:04Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > The Elves knew; they must have, having heard Sauron when he proclaimed the inscription, and having taken definitive steps to hide the Three from him. Essentially from the moment of its creation, at least some of the Elves knew and feared the Ring. Which elves knew what? Probably only those elves wearing the elven rings at the time Sauron put on the ruling ring. So, Celebrimbor, and two associates perhaps? They sent the rings out of Eregion, but I suspect those with 1st hand knowledge of Sauron’s putting on the One Ring got knocked off in the subsequent battle. Most elves were out of the loop, or had second-hand information at best. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/34 "2009-09-16T13:58:34Z")
The Istari knew a lot, but not everything. Gandalf didn’t even know that the Necromancer _was_ Sauron until he’d infiltrated Dol Guldur. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/35 "2009-09-16T14:49:29Z")
Back to the OP and Isildur: I vote for Tragic Hero. I think the key word in the account is “weregild.” Isildur’s anger and resentment over his father’s and brother’s death (exemplified by wanting to exact more recompense from Sauron, in the form of this lovely trinket…) provides a crack in his moral armor, which the ring quickly exploits. A Faramir or Aragorn in this situation, perhaps more tempered by pity and sorrow, would have mourned their kin, but not let the anger fester there. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/36 "2009-09-16T14:56:30Z")
To take this on a different tack, Gimli: Gimli is not tempted because Dwarves just aren’t into that. Sauron tried the whole “corrupt dwarves with rings” thing, and it just made them greedy. Dwarves brains just work different apparently, because Power is not on their list of priorities. Being able to roll around in a huge vat of money like Scrooge McDuck is closer to what they want, and The One Ring doesn’t really do that for you. Yeah, you could probably use the One to get yourself an army of slaves to dig for Mithril or whatever, but apparently this is too subtle for the direct workings of the Dwarven Brain. Of course, all this points to Dwarves being the ideal Ring Bearer, but, really, it seems unlikely a dwarf could ever destroy the thing - or give it away. Once they _had_ something of such singular beauty, they would probably covet it for itself, but the usual “Promises of power” that The One furnishes aren’t really the appropriate bait for dwarves. So I guess, really, you need a hobbit surrounded by a crowd of dwarves for minimum risk ring conveyance. Which, curiously, looks a lot like the company that was moving the ring around with relative ease in The Hobbit… ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/37 "2009-09-16T15:00:52Z")
**Heir** , I don’t expect the Istari to be omniscient, but I did expect them to be up on current events to the point they first arrived in Middle-earth. I would expect them to know anything the Elves knew at that time. After that, of course, they would be limited to whatever information they could get, subject to the limitations of communications by normal means. **Qadop** , you think the ring-wearing Elves would have kept it to themselves? **grey** , the Istari didn’t arrive until 1500 Third Age? I thought it was earlier than that. **bandit** , yours seems like the best explanation, but if it’s true, then everybody in the LotR proper was acting on _way_ less solid information than I had thought. Elrond certainly doesn’t seem to have any uncertainty as to the nature of the Ring, nor did Galadriel or Gandalf. Hmm, that brings us back to **Qadop** ’s statement that the Elven Ring Lords or whatever you want to call them kept what they knew to themselves. But this strongly implies that their knowledge of the Ring was derived largely from the events of more or less current times (i.e. from Bilbo’s discovery of the Ring on), plus what they had been able to find out about Gollum, and that Elrond’s urging Isildur to destroy the Ring was based on a gut feeling. Which makes Isildur a tragic hero rather than a feckless wanker. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/38 "2009-09-16T15:13:47Z")
Istari arrival ~1000 3rd Age. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/39 "2009-09-16T15:37:21Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > …So I guess, really, you need a hobbit surrounded by a crowd of dwarves for minimum risk ring conveyance. Which, curiously, looks a lot like the company that was moving the ring around with relative ease in The Hobbit… An excellent point. I’d never really thought of it that way before. Well put! I also like your Scrooge McDuck analogy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041/40 "2009-09-16T17:39:01Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Back to the OP and Isildur: I vote for Tragic Hero. I think the key word in the account is “weregild.” Isildur’s anger and resentment over his father’s and brother’s death (exemplified by wanting to exact more recompense from Sauron, in the form of this lovely trinket…) provides a crack in his moral armor, which the ring quickly exploits. A Faramir or Aragorn in this situation, perhaps more tempered by pity and sorrow, would have mourned their kin, but not let the anger fester there. Errr… maybe. We know almost nothing of Isildur other than that he was exceptionally brave and certainly inherited a great deal of Elvish strength. Educated guessing as to his knowledge is one thing. Guessing as to his character is quite another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isildur-tragic-hero-or-feckless-wanker-or-yet-another-tolkien-thread/510041.md?page=3)