# ISIS and the path to statehood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818 "2014-09-18T13:48:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/1 "2014-09-18T13:48:20Z")
My knowledge of history is lacking especially when it comes to states forcibly gaining statehood for themselves. Let’s assume a worst-case scenario where the local attitude sharply shifts in ISIS favorafter years of conflict with foreign powers. Is there a real opportunity for ISIS to gain statehood for themselves through force and conquest? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/2 "2014-09-18T14:10:47Z")
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question, but I think ISIS territory would become a state if unopposed by other states. It seems sort of obvious. Whether they would ever be recognized by the UN or treated as an independent state by other countries is another question. In the modern world they would likely be treated only as part of a failed state. On the historical note, I think force and conquest is the standard way by which nation states form and grow. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/3 "2014-09-18T14:20:37Z")
To add to that, there’s certainly a possibility that ISIS/ISIL/whatever is well enough provisioned to establish a state of sorts in the region it currently occupies. I don’t think they are going to get much beyond North Korea-style pariah status, however, if they believe, as seems to be the case, that [kidnapping and lopping off the heads of random civilians in their home countries](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/17/world/asia/australia-terror-arrests/) is a legitimate and useful tool of diplomacy. ---
**Author:** ![mil0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mil0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mil0)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/4 "2014-09-18T15:46:20Z")
No. ISIL is a nonstate actor pursuing a caliphate over the entire historical body of Dar al-Islam. That is decidedly not the standard Westphalian approach towards eventual statehood. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/5 "2014-09-18T16:37:47Z")
I’ve called this a standard doctrine in the past. All that is required to become an establish state - or successfully rebel against an existing state - is to proclaim it and make it stick against all comers. Everything else - diplomatic recognition, trade agreements and so forth - is secondary to that basic principle. So if ISIS declares itself independent and five years from now is still there, it will have acheived its goal of becoming a separate nation. Not everyone may recognize them, but some will and over time most will (though that might be measured in centuries). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/6 "2014-09-18T21:41:24Z")
> [@mil0](#): > > . . . That is decidedly not the standard Westphalian approach towards eventual statehood. ??? I’m ignorant of the meaning of “Westphalian” in this context. A region of Germany, sure, but… ??? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/7 "2014-09-18T21:45:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? I’m ignorant of the meaning of “Westphalian” in this context. A region of Germany, sure, but… ??? [Peace of Westphalia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia). It’s been talked about a lot of late due to certain current events. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/8 "2014-09-18T21:59:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? I’m ignorant of the meaning of “Westphalian” in this context. A region of Germany, sure, but… ??? He’s referring to [Westphalian sovereignty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty), which in essence kicked off the modern international system, where the nation-state is the highest actor in the world. Before that, monarchs were the highest social order and all politics was built around that person. Since ISIS doesn’t really represent the Ummah and they aren’t interested in holding specific turf, they can’t be a Westphalian state. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/9 "2014-09-18T23:47:21Z")
It would be interesting, though, to know to what extent they have managed to set up an operation that meaningfully functions like a state on a day-to-day basis. For example, is there an ISIS DMV where people stand in line for hours only to find out that they need to bring additional paperwork? Are there ISIS-run or ISIS-accredited formal educational institutions that grant diplomas or degrees? Is it legal to make a right turn on red in ISIS-land, and if not, what is the penalty? Do they just lop off your head or is there a schedule of traffic fines? What are the qualifications to practice medicine under ISIS? Is there a board of medical practice and licensing or is an AK-47 and a dozen friends with AK-47’s enough for a “license”? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/10 "2014-09-25T09:11:56Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It would be interesting, though, to know to what extent they have managed to set up an operation that meaningfully functions like a state on a day-to-day basis. > > For example, is there an ISIS DMV where people stand in line for hours only to find out that they need to bring additional paperwork? Are there ISIS-run or ISIS-accredited formal educational institutions that grant diplomas or degrees? Is it legal to make a right turn on red in ISIS-land, and if not, what is the penalty? Do they just lop off your head or is there a schedule of traffic fines? What are the qualifications to practice medicine under ISIS? Is there a board of medical practice and licensing or is an AK-47 and a dozen friends with AK-47’s enough for a “license”? [Here](https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-part-1) is the first episode of VICE’s ISIS series. In the series - can’t remember if it’s in the first episode or not - you will see at least a bit of humdrum day-to-day running-a-state sort of stuff in Raqqa, ISIS’ unofficial capital. Jam-packed “Islamic courts” where citizens go with their grievances; a specific side-room for Christians, completely empty because - surprise surprise! - the Christians have all fled; a sort of “morality police” - bearded fellas with AK-47’s - patrolling the streets, telling random passersbys to tear down indecent movie posters, clothe their wives in coarser fabric (“we can see everything!”), and so on. They also interview prisoners caught for selling alcohol, dealing drugs, etc. **WARNING** : There is also footage of decapitated bodies (Syrian soldiers) and crucified prisoners and that sort of thing. **DO NOT WATCH** if you’d rather not see that. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/11 "2014-09-25T11:10:10Z")
The usual way in which a political movement gets to act as a state, and be recognised as a state actor, is by successfully taking over the government of an existing state - e.g. the Taliban in Afghanistan. If ISIS defeated the Iraqi government and set itself up as the new Iraqi government, say, then Iraq would effectively be an ISIS-run state. Sure, they’d be a pariah state at first, but in time there’s no reason why they shouldn’t lose that status. History is full of examples of political movements being denounced as terrorist, often with good cause, and later forming governments which with other governments deal. If ISIS wanted to carve out a new state, out of part of Iraq or part of Syria or both, that’s much more difficult. In general other states are very slow to recognise secessionist states; basically the only way this is likely to win international acceptance is if ISIS fights a civil war leading to a negotiated secession to which Syria and Iraq agree - which is a fairly unlikely scenario. The fact that ISIS doesn’t enjoy recognition as the government of a sovereign state, however, won’t prevent states from dealing with them, if in fact they have effective control over some territory and those other states have interests in respect of that territory which need protection. Reportedly, ISIS is producing and selling oil from the territory it controls. Somebody is buying; it could well be government agencies that are doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/12 "2014-09-25T20:34:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Peace of Westphalia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia). It’s been talked about a lot of late due to certain current events. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > He’s referring to [Westphalian sovereignty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty), which in essence kicked off the modern international system, where the nation-state is the highest actor in the world. Before that, monarchs were the highest social order and all politics was built around that person. > > Since ISIS doesn’t really represent the Ummah and they aren’t interested in holding specific turf, they can’t be a Westphalian state. Thank’ee kindly! I’d never heard the term before. I’ve never done much reading about the Thirty Years War (largely because it’s so damn depressing.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/13 "2014-09-25T21:47:26Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > [Here](https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-part-1) is the first episode of VICE’s ISIS series. In the series - can’t remember if it’s in the first episode or not - you will see at least a bit of humdrum day-to-day running-a-state sort of stuff in Raqqa, ISIS’ unofficial capital. Very interesting series. When is part 5 coming out? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/14 "2014-09-25T22:45:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Very interesting series. When is part 5 coming out? As soon as they can behead a few more infidels. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/15 "2014-09-26T03:52:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As soon as they can behead a few more infidels. Try to watch the series. It is fascinating. Reminds me quite a bit of the early Bolshevik regime. Same fervor, same ideological purity drive, same ruthlessness/cruelty, same reliance on brainwashing of the young… ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/16 "2014-09-26T09:15:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Very interesting series. When is part 5 coming out? Episode 5 is right [here](https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-part-5). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/17 "2014-09-26T09:30:40Z")
There is also [this](http://www.vice.com/vice-news/the-canadian-jihadist-678) one, from just a few days ago. Somali-Canadian ISIS recruit talking a big one over Skype to VICE’s Shane Smith. Dude claims, amongst other things, that they downed both a Saudi plane and an Emirati plane, and even managed to take the Emirati pilot alive. Don’t know if that’s true? ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/18 "2014-09-26T10:49:33Z")
A state would be any entity that has territory, a populace, a military, and a means of funding itself. We just blew the crap out of that last one by hitting oil wells ISIL had taken over. I doubt that will be the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-and-the-path-to-statehood/698818/19 "2014-09-26T11:29:18Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > A state would be any entity that has territory, a populace, a military, and a means of funding itself. > > We just blew the crap out of that last one by hitting oil wells ISIL had taken over. I doubt that will be the end of it. ISIS has many sources of income apart from those oil wells, so, no, you didn’t “just [blow] the crap out of” its “means of funding itself.” You’re right about the last bit - this won’t be the end of it, not by a long shot.