# ISIS captures Ramadi...now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328 "2015-05-18T21:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/161 "2015-05-28T16:02:52Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Which is a ridiculous comparison. ISIS isn’t the “lying, sneaky, underhanded, murderous opponent” Hitler was. ISIS isn’t conquering two thirds of Europe, and the people ISIS is brutalizing won’t greet us as liberators if we destroy ISIS. We’ll just be creating another vacuum for another ISIS to form, potentially requiring us to have PERMANENT troops and PERMANENT casualties from the ongoing strife we’d be trying to quell. So no, Obama is not anything like Chamberlain…Obama is keeping us out of an endless, expensive quagmire. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s an even worse comparison. When did Obama meet with the leader of the so-called Islamic State and grant concessions? And we’re (the US) not even part of the Middle East to begin with. AND… Obama is taking direct action against them, even if you think it’s not enough. > > This is not our war. We shouldn’t even be doing what Obama is doing in the first place. Ahem… I was clarifying that the comparison was between Obama and Chamberlain, and not between ISIS and Hitler. Of course, you’re free to create any strawmen you wish. For the record, the various Arab Springs, or whatever you chose to call them, are civil wars. However, other countries in the region are involved in civil wars that are not their own. Personally, I see no reason for the U.S. to become enmeshed in Middle East civil wars. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/162 "2015-05-28T16:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=doorhinge] Personally, I see no reason for the U.S. to become enmeshed in Middle East civil wars. [/QUOTE] Well, there is all that oil stuff… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/163 "2015-05-28T16:28:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, there is all that oil stuff… The oil will still be there after the extremists have murdered most of the population. The fanatical murderers can then chose whether to sell it, or not. Maybe Putin will make them a deal they can’t refuse? Even after Iran begins resorting to atomic warfare, the oil could still be extracted if the workers worn the proper protective clothing. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/164 "2015-05-28T16:34:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The oil will still be there after the extremists have murdered most of the population. The fanatical murderers can then chose whether to sell it, or not. Maybe Putin will make them a deal they can’t refuse? > > Even after Iran begins resorting to atomic warfare, the oil could still be extracted if the workers worn the proper protective clothing. So, your idea is that the industrialized world with inelastic demand for oil can just wait around until the terrorists kill everyone and then start selling oil again? I’m no expert, but there seems to be some flaws in your idea here. Bottom line is there are reasons that the US is and has to be involved…and why even our Euro buddies are involved in this mess at a certain level. Saying you can’t think of any is either silly or disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/165 "2015-05-28T18:07:55Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > What just amazes me is how poliannaishly naïve, how cluelessly forgetful, how BLIND these hawks are for calling for more involvement. Do they really think that once we’ve thrown water on the bad witch ISIS that the villagers are going to sing and get right back to there quiet village lives and they’ll be thankful and happy and content?. Part of their job - what they have accepted campaign donations to do - is to find work for the US military; to justify and validate. How on earth do you justify the absurd size if it’s not doing anything … after pulling out of Iraq and now Afghanistan it literally has to act. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/166 "2015-05-28T19:20:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Ahem… I was clarifying that the comparison was between Obama and Chamberlain, and not between ISIS and Hitler. Of course, you’re free to create any strawmen you wish. Because there are just _so many_ reasons to bring up Neville Chamberlain. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Personally, I see no reason for the U.S. to become enmeshed in Middle East civil wars. Holy shit! We agree on something. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/167 "2015-05-28T20:28:21Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Because there are just _so many_ reasons to bring up Neville Chamberlain. :rolleyes: > > Holy shit! We agree on something. 😃 NEVILLE Chamberlain? I thought we were talking about Wilton Norman Chamberlain?!?!?!? 😃 May 28th, 2015 - Mark it on your calendar, and buy a round for the house. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/168 "2015-05-28T20:45:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, your idea is that the industrialized world with inelastic demand for oil can just wait around until the terrorists kill everyone and then start selling oil again? I’m no expert, but there seems to be some flaws in your idea here. > > Bottom line is there are reasons that the US is and has to be involved…and why even our Euro buddies are involved in this mess at a certain level. Saying you can’t think of any is either silly or disingenuous. There are many reasons why peace should break out in the Middle East. However, they would all be based on Muslims not killing Muslims, Arabs not killing Arabs, Muslims not killing Jews, Muslims not killing Christians, etc., and that just ain’t gonna happen. Too much long-festering hatred exists. Unless you can think of a way for them to put aside thousands of years of warfare, and revenge, I no longer see any possible way for them all to get along and stop killing each other. Another option is for those who want to kill each other should get it over and done with. Maybe the survivors will listen to reason? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/169 "2015-05-28T22:14:59Z")
If ISIS continues to expand and the United States has to resort to sending troops into the region to battle them, will all the pollyannaish liberals on this board acknowledge that the correct action was to confront ISIS at the outset with dominating force? There lies something in between Bush’s Iraq and 1940’s Berlin. Be smart once in a while and maybe our military could actually do some good for humanity. Like it did when Chamberlain waffled. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/170 "2015-05-28T22:30:26Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If ISIS continues to expand and the United States has to resort to sending troops into the region to battle them, will all the pollyannaish liberals on this board acknowledge that the correct action was to confront ISIS at the outset with dominating force? To me, this sounds like simplistic thinking in regard to a very complex issue. Just because we eventually end up in a quagmire doesn’t mean we should have been in a hurry to get there. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/171 "2015-05-28T23:01:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > PBS aired an excellent documentary on _Frontline_ last night-- _Obama’s War_. Anyone interested in this subject should take the time to watch it. Thanks for that, I just watched it. Frontline does a great job with the whole Information thing, and I’m glad I watched it. Here’s a link to it: [Obama at War | FRONTLINE](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obama-at-war/) edit: (Heh- shoulda read the last page before providing the link.) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/172 "2015-05-28T23:03:03Z")
Every war is WWII, every bad guy is Hitler, all talks of appeasement and diplomacy are reflexively met with cries of “Chamberlain” and “Munich.” So go the American hawks. Of course, they can’t actually say what Chamberlain did wrong, precisely, given the geopolitical state of Britain in the late '30s. The idea of appeasement and surrender being the mark of a foolish coward is more important. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/173 "2015-05-28T23:19:16Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Excellent Frontline, “Obama AT War”, (not “Obama’s War” John). I found it pretty bizarre. The US has always been impotent in Syria. It totally goes against US mentality and culture to accept that so this whole documentary tried to show otherwise. In contrast, Putin did a deal in 5 days. Made me laugh out load when McCain said ‘bomb them’ and the follow up question was ‘but what happens when Assad falls?’ ‘erm, dunno’. You get edited out for that man-in-the-pub nonsense. UK Prime Minister Cameron didn’t let Parliament decide by accident, he wanted to be able to say ‘sorry, would like to help and this vote is totally unexpected but we can’t …’. The US has no place in this conflict. No role. Bombing gets you fuck all. At times the rebels almost reminded me of the bogus South Vietnam regime. The ‘spokesman’ had all the standard rehearsed lines. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/174 "2015-05-29T00:15:41Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > …Of course, they can’t actually say what Chamberlain did wrong, precisely, given the geopolitical state of Britain in the late '30s. The idea of appeasement and surrender being the mark of a foolish coward is more important. (post shortened) Neville Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement was a misguided effort to allow Hitler to take little pieces of Europe in the hope that Hitler would eventually be satisfied, and not attempt to take large pieces, or all, of Europe. Neville guessed wrong. Chamberlain conceded the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia to Germany. Chamberlain had no such authority. He didn’t represent Czechoslovakia. He promised Hitler that G.B. wouldn’t fight for Czechoslovakia’s freedom. Hitler responded by making a non-aggression pact with Stalin, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and then invaded Poland. (Stalin invaded Poland 17 days later but G.B. and France didn’t bother to declare war on Russia???). Prior to this, Chamberlain had opened direct talks with Italy, after Italy had invaded and conquered Ethiopia. Fuck them Ethiopians, what did they ever do for Chamberlain’s Britain? Austrians received the same appeasement. Hitler wants Austria, so let him have it. Chamberlain did sent Hitler a strongly worded letter condemning this action. Hitler had no reason to respect Chamberlain, or Chamberlain’s position. Hitler said, “Jump” and Chamberlain replied, “How high”. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/175 "2015-05-29T01:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If ISIS continues to expand and the United States has to resort to sending troops into the region to battle them, will all the pollyannaish liberals on this board acknowledge that the correct action was to confront ISIS at the outset with dominating force? > > There lies something in between Bush’s Iraq and 1940’s Berlin. Be smart once in a while and maybe our military could actually do some good for humanity. Like it did when Chamberlain waffled. Flesh this out for us, Stringbean. tell us exactly what happens after this “correct action”, this “dominating force” we use when we confront ISIS leaves thousands of dead bodies, many of them collateral civilians, and of course many of our own troops to come home in body bags. Tell us what happens then…elaborate…show your work. Will they finally accept us? The Middle East is not Poland or Hungary or Czechoslovakia of 1938. The people we’d be heroically saving can’t stand our way of life. They’re in no way going to look at us as an authority to respect. Please tell us what happens in your new humanity that we’ve just saved. Come on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/176 "2015-05-29T01:59:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I disagree that we are doing to much now. I think Obama is taking the right tact on this. We are providing air support to forces engaged on the ground and probably some training and intelligence, and that’s pretty much it. It’s up to the Iraqi’s to fight on the ground and either push ISIS/ISIL out or not without us to prop them up. At some point they are going to need to come to terms with the issues between their Shia majority and their Sunni population and the history between the two and integrate the Sunni’s back into governing the country and having a stake in fighting for the concept of Iraq…or not, in which case they will eventually fall. You could be right. Maybe we just haven’t bombed them enough to make them like us. And maybe if we show the Iraqis that we care about their country more than they do by bombing some more, they will begin to care about their country, too. > [@rock\_party](#): > > “Obama’s War” is a 2009 Frontline docu about Afghanistan. > > “Obama AT War” is the 2015 Frontline docu. Oh, OK. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/177 "2015-05-29T02:24:06Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Flesh this out for us, Stringbean. tell us exactly what happens after this “correct action”, this “dominating force” we use when we confront ISIS leaves thousands of dead bodies, many of them collateral civilians, and of course many of our own troops to come home in body bags. Tell us what happens then…elaborate…show your work. > > Will they finally accept us?.. (post shortened) ISIS has murdered tens of thousands in the towns and areas they have conquered. And they will continue to do so. What will their final total be? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Are they trying to best Stalin’s record? The Middle East won’t accept Middle Eastern rule, let alone something devised by outsiders. The bloodshed will continue. Obama isn’t going to do anything worthwhile. Congress isn’t going to do anything worthwhile. The U.S. military isn’t allowed to anything worthwhile. The Ramadi defenders out-gunned, and out-manned, the blood-thirsty ISIS attackers but the Ramadi defenders threw down their weapons, and ran. They didn’t even take the time to spike the big guns they abandoned. I suspect that Bagdad will fall and ISIS will continue to murder hundreds of thousands more. SSDD. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/178 "2015-05-29T02:44:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You could be right. Maybe we just haven’t bombed them enough to make them like us. And maybe if we show the Iraqis that we care about their country more than they do by bombing some more, they will begin to care about their country, too. [/QUOTE] Well, I could be right (there is a first time for everything after all), but this has little to do with anything I’m saying. Bomb them to like us? Where did THAT come from? BTW, in case you are not up on current events, the Iraqis (well, Iraqi government and even some of the Shia tribal and militia leaders) ASKED us for air support and are bitching, quite loudly that we aren’t doing enough. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/179 "2015-05-29T03:45:11Z")
> [@](#): > > The Middle East won’t accept Middle Eastern rule, let alone something devised by outsiders. The bloodshed will continue. > > Obama isn’t going to do anything worthwhile. Congress isn’t going to do anything worthwhile. The U.S. military isn’t allowed to anything worthwhile. Then what’s with the RW, Fox news drumbeat of “Obama’s not doing enough!” That he’s some waffling panty-waist who’s too timid to react and get the job done. What do you say to these calls of MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE!! and they’re constantly saying it can’t be won without troops on the ground, yet they stop short before saying we should actually PUT troops on the ground. Just political horseshit as usual? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328/180 "2015-05-29T05:28:34Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > [Islamist fighters drawn from half the world’s countries, says UN](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/26/islamist-fighters-drawn-from-half-the-worlds-countries-says-un) > > The problem with “bombing” and “staying power” and having 10 aircraft carriers and about 60% of the worlds military capability is … these people come home again, trained, radicalised and equipped. > > It isn’t about ‘over there’ anymore. Doesn’t matter. If they come home, it is going to be onesie-twosie kinds of things. That is the job of the police, or the equivalents of the FBI/CIA/Homeland Security in various countries. No need for the Marines to go anywhere this time (as hugely profitable as that would be for certain interests). We can bomb this one to death, it isn’t Hitler Himself yanno. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-captures-ramadi-now-what/720328.md?page=10)