# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/1 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")
This offshoot of Al Queda has now apparentely for all intents and purposes taken Mosul. > **[Sunni Militants Drive Iraqi Army Out of Mosul (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/world/middleeast/militants-in-mosul.html)** > > Militants spilling over the border from Syria seized control of Iraq’s second-largest city in the most stunning success yet of a rapidly widening insurgency that threatens to drag the region into war. The fact they’re taken Iraqs third biggest city, and also hold Fallujah, parts of Ramadi, Samarra, Al Raqaa in Syria seems to me to be one of the biggest threats to Western security since 9/11. Why isn’t Western intelligence working in coordination with some of the Arabs states to destroy this movement? In fact, why isn’t Turkey? This is all happening on their southern border you’d think they’d be concerned about a radicalist organisation growing in size. I read Patrick Cockburns account of this organisation and he hits the nail on the head. > [@](#): > > _In Iraq in the past four days, it has fought its way into the northern capital of Mosul, sent a column of its fighters into the central city of Samarra and taken over Iraq’s largest university at Ramadi, in the west of the country. In addition, it launched devastating bombings targeting Shia civilians in Baghdad that killed at least 52 people. > \*\* > The creation of a sort of proto-Caliphate by extreme jihadis in northern Syria and Iraq is provoking fears in surrounding countries such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey that they will become targets of battle-hardened Sunni fighters._\*\* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/2 "2014-06-10T14:49:23Z")
How are they able to do this? Why can’t the Iraqi army stop them? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/3 "2014-06-10T14:54:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How are they able to do this? Why can’t the Iraqi army stop them? Bad training, they’re like the Middle Eastern version of the ARVN. [Battle to establish Islamic state across Iraq and Syria | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/battle-to-establish-islamic-state-across-iraq-and-syria-9510044.html) (Link for the first post) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/4 "2014-06-10T15:50:13Z")
If the entire well-equipped and supported US-led Multi-National Forces couldn’t stop the insurgency, why do you expect that the relatively poorly supported Iraqi security forces (primarily the Army and national police forces) are going to be effective against them, especially given all of the external support and funding from Iran, Syria, and independent fundamentalist Islamic sources, and the fact that a diverse collection of otherwise unassociated groups have joined together in opposition of what is largely viewed as a Coalition-installed puppet government? It is important to understand history; specifically, that Iraq, as a nation or shared cultural identity, doesn’t have any prior to the British Mandate which installed the Syrian-born Hashimite King Faisal. The state is entirely a fabrication of European nations, and owes its continued existence and highly varied leadership to direct support by Western powers. It is little wonder the population has little regard for the United States, the United Kingdom, and its ‘clients’ in the current Iraqi government, especially given the once strong support provided to the brutal regime of Saddam Hussain by the United States (in opposition to Iraq) followed by using his actions as an excuse to invade the nation, destroy its infrastructure, and rebuild the nation in the ostensible form of a Western-style democracy while favoring one strong ethnic subgroup and profiteering the hell out of the situation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/5 "2014-06-10T16:13:48Z")
That government is ironically more representative than most governments in the Middle East barring Israel or Turkey. So implying they’re a puppet government is quite ridiculous. The Iraqi Army was supposed to do better due it being indigenous to that region, and hence being able to work more effectively than a foreign occupier. The main problem of the Iraqi Army is that it’s barely ten years old, and a reconstituted force made from scratch. They have a shared identity as being subjects of the former Ottoman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/6 "2014-06-10T16:23:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They have a shared identity as being subjects of the former Ottoman Empire. Oh yes, that collective “Ottoman” identity. This is why everybody from the Balkans to the Arabian Peninsula speaks Turkish. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/7 "2014-06-10T16:35:30Z")
Honestly, I think we in the Western world is sick of Iraq and would prefer it to go away. There’s absolutely NO public support whatsoever to go back into Iraq for the duration and manpower it would take to pacify those places again. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/8 "2014-06-10T16:52:48Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Oh yes, that collective “Ottoman” identity. This is why everybody from the Balkans to the Arabian Peninsula speaks Turkish. > > Stranger Yeah, because it’s only language which binds people together :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/9 "2014-06-10T16:55:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Honestly, I think we in the Western world is sick of Iraq and would prefer it to go away. There’s absolutely NO public support whatsoever to go back into Iraq for the duration and manpower it would take to pacify those places again. But it’s not crazy to assume sometime in the future, that’s exactly what’s going to happen if this organisation is able to hold territory and build up its power base. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/10 "2014-06-10T17:31:34Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Honestly, I think we in the Western world is sick of Iraq and would prefer it to go away. Global warming should take care of that eventually . . . ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/11 "2014-06-10T18:12:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Honestly, I think we in the Western world is sick of Iraq and would prefer it to go away. We in the Western world has pretty short memories, I’ll say that for us. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/12 "2014-06-10T20:26:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, because it’s only language which binds people together :dubious: Show me anyone outside of Turkey who considers themselves “Ottoman” or uses that term to describe their heritage. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/13 "2014-06-10T20:41:09Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They have a shared identity as being subjects of the former Ottoman Empire. Since when does that matter? I don’t have any special kinship with any of the other former areas that were subjects of the Spanish or French kings, and yet my area was once both Spanish and French. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/14 "2014-06-10T20:59:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The main problem of the Iraqi Army is that it’s barely ten years old, and a reconstituted force made from scratch. The main problem with the Iraqi Army is that it’s the Iraqi Army. That’s its had ten years to get its act together and still hasn’t managed to isn’t very surprising. The Iraqi Army has performed poorly at best in every war its been in, horribly ineptly at worst. The Iraqi Army was easily quashed by the [British in 1941](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War) despite being heavily outnumbered: > [@](#): > > The British forces from Habbaniya pressed on to Baghdad after successfully defending Fallujah. Major-General Clark decided to maintain the momentum because he expected that the Iraqis did not appreciate just how small and just how vulnerable his forces actually were. Clark had a total of about 1,450 men to attack at least 20,000 Iraqi defenders. In the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, the Iraqi contingent consisting of the [3rd Armored Division](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Division_(Iraq)) arrived at the front as Israel was advancing on Damascus. Its arrival took the IDF off guard, and had it been effectively led could have presented a serious threat to the flank of the Israeli advance. Instead, the division inexplicably halted in the early afternoon of 12 October and didn’t resume the advance again until the next morning, neglecting to perform the most basic reconnaissance in the interim. The advance the next morning blindly walked into a huge ambush prepared by the Israelis during the night; over 150 tanks were lost, the 8th Mechanized Brigade effectively destroyed and Israeli losses were negligible. I assume the horrific performance of the Iraqi Army in the Iran-Iraq War, Desert Storm and the 2003 war are well enough known to not need repeating. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, because it’s only language which binds people together :dubious: You’re the one claiming being former subjects of the Ottoman Empire creates some sort of shared identity. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/15 "2014-06-10T21:37:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Show me anyone outside of Turkey who considers themselves “Ottoman” or uses that term to describe their heritage. > > Stranger They don’t have to, but in comparison to the former British colonies of India and the US, on the surface, they appear to have nothing in common, but they have similarities in Law and the influences of British culture as they were both once parts of the British Empire, same goes with the Ottoman Turks in relation to their Arab realms, plus they’re nearly all Muslims, unless you’re denying that the Ottoman Turks left any tangible influence in the Middle East? > [@](#): > > **bump** > Since when does that matter? I don’t have any special kinship with any of the other former areas that were subjects of the Spanish or French kings, and yet my area was once both Spanish and French. What area is this you speak of? I’m not blind to the fact there will be people who disagree, I’m generalising to certain extent. > [@](#): > > **Dissonance** > The main problem with the Iraqi Army is that it’s the Iraqi Army. That’s its had ten years to get its act together and still hasn’t managed to isn’t very surprising. The Iraqi Army has performed poorly at best in every war its been in, horribly ineptly at worst. The Iraqi Army was easily quashed by the British in 1941 despite being heavily outnumbered: But we’re dealing with a terrorist threat, not a national army or a technologically superior Western one. It seems to me that we’re witnessing the Iraqi version of [Ap Bac](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ap_Bac) > [@](#): > > You’re the one claiming being former subjects of the Ottoman Empire creates some sort of shared identity. Yup, Turkey has a lot of cultural influence in the Middle East, one small example is the popular Turkish dramas which are syndicated by various TV networks. But putting this to one side, doesn’t anyone find this disturbing in the least? Al-Qaeda affiliates have now got sway over around 2 million people, in the heart of the Middle East and have held back two armies through sheer ruthlessness. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/16 "2014-06-10T22:51:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But we’re dealing with a terrorist threat, not a national army or a technologically superior Western one. It seems to me that we’re witnessing the Iraqi version of [Ap Bac](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ap_Bac). 😕 Ap Bac wasn’t a terrorist threat, it wasn’t even a guerilla action. It was a conventional fight between the Viet Cong and the ARVN; the VC deliberately chose to stand and fight: > [@](#): > > For the Viet Cong, the Battle of Ap Bac marked the first time they decided to stand and fight a large South Vietnamese formation, although outnumbered by more than five to one. Against overwhelming odds, the Viet Cong achieved their first major victory. They successfully stopped the well-equipped South Vietnamese army, supported by a combination of artillery and armored units as well as American airpower. The Viet Cong casualties were just 18 soldiers killed and 39 wounded, despite the fact that the fighters were hit by more than 600 rounds of artillery, napalm and other ordnance released by 13 warplanes and five UH-1 gunships. So if you feel we’re witnessing an Iraqi version of Ap Bac, you’re contradicting yourself. In any event, the main problem with the Iraqi Army in its current incarnation isn’t its youth. That was an excuse when it was first being slapped back together. It stops working as an excuse when it’s had 10 years to get its act together. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/17 "2014-06-10T23:17:44Z")
[Bob Dreyfuss assigns some blame:](http://www.thenation.com/blog/180177/iraqs-nightmare-gets-worse) > [@](#): > > The crisis now engulfing Iraq provides the ultimate condemnation of the decision by George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and their cohorts—backed, of course, by Hillary Clinton and John Kerry—to invade Iraq in 2003. That action, which destroyed virtually all of Iraq’s institutions and created a power vacuum that led directly to an ethnic and sectarian civil war, is now playing out all of its terrible consequences. > > \ > > Much of the blame for the chaos lies with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who emerged from the April 30 elections in a strong position to claim another term as Iraq’s strongman leader. Since taking office with American support during the occupation, Maliki has ruled as an iron-fisted sectarian Shiite, rallying Shiite support to his side by shutting out Sunnis from power and persecuting leading Sunni politicians who dared challenge him. (For a detailed, and chilling, account of Maliki’s rise to power and his imperious rule, take a look at Dexter Filkins’s New Yorker piece from last April.) Maliki, of course, rose to power with support from the United States and Iran, though each country had different objectives. > > \ > > Human Rights Watch, in a piece titled, “In Iraq, Murder is the Norm,” says: > > > [@](#): > > > > Almost every day in Iraq, terrorist attacks kill civilians. Suicide and car bombs explode in markets, at rallies, and at marches of Shia pilgrims. These attacks are so extreme they have probably reached the level of crimes against humanity. But the government’s response is no better. Shia militias with apparent ties to the government execute suspected terrorists and those they accuse of supporting them. Militias and government forces have terrorized Sunni villages around Baghdad. Abusive government forces do not try to hide their crimes. On the contrary, they publicize them proudly. Elite military units post videos online of the prisoners they execute. > > \ > > A new report from Anthony Cordesman at the Center for Strategic and International Studies lays out some basic facts: > > > [@](#): > > > > The World Bank ranks Iraq as having extremely low quality of governance: It ranks 178th in the world in accountability, 201st in political stability and violence. 182nd in government effectiveness, 205th in the quality of rule of law, 189th in the quality of government regulation, and 193rd in the control of corruption.… Iraq ranks 131st on the UN Human Development Index. In comparison, the UAE ranks 41st, and Saudi Arabia ranks 57th.… In spite of its high oil revenues, its per capita income ($1,000) only ranks 141st in the world, by far the lowest of any Gulf state. If you’ve got a state where nothing in the government works right, of course that will leave a clear field for rebels. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/18 "2014-06-10T23:28:24Z")
Why exactly is this a threat to Western security? Tell us about this massive air power they have to move terrorists to Europe and the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/19 "2014-06-10T23:44:29Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Why exactly is this a threat to Western security? Tell us about this massive air power they have to move terrorists to Europe and the U.S. They have oil. Everybody seems to assume it matters who controls it. Of course, whoever controls it is going to have to pump it and export it, because what else is it good for? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/20 "2014-06-11T00:27:30Z")
I’ve been resisting the urge to suggest simply sending Archer and Lana over to take care of things all day. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=2)