# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/181 "2014-06-24T18:10:08Z")
Again, a Caliphate has happened before, so what’s the big deal? The Iranians were ‘revolutionary’ however it seems the generations after 79’ mellowed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/182 "2014-06-24T18:49:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It also didn’t include Jordan and when Arab Nationalists under Arafat tried to take over they got squashed by Jordan’s army and went scurrying off to Lebanon with their tail tucked firmly between their legs. > > I’m not sure why BG is so sure the Hashemites would allow themselves to get swallowed up like that. What “allow”? They’d fight ISIS to resist it, of course. The question is whether they’d win. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/183 "2014-06-24T19:58:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What “allow”? They’d fight ISIS to resist it, of course. The question is whether they’d win. Could you give some reason you think it’s remotely possible? I mean Jordan’s military is 10X the size of ISIL and has an airforce. Jordanians would be defending their homes and ISIL is mostly foreigners. Do you know some weapon ISIL has up it’s sleeve? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/184 "2014-06-24T22:11:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Could you give some reason you think it’s remotely possible? I mean Jordan’s military is 10X the size of ISIL and has an airforce. Jordanians would be defending their homes and ISIL is mostly foreigners. Do you know some weapon ISIL has up it’s sleeve? Bear in mind, also, that Israel will be fighting right alongside Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/185 "2014-06-25T18:26:56Z")
Sad news, the man who was judge and ordered Saddam’s execution has now been executed himself. > **[Murder of Saddam’s judge brings Iraq closer to the brink](https://nypost.com/2014/06/23/saddam-judges-slay-brings-iraq-closer-to-brink/)** > > Rampaging jihadists captured and killed the Iraqi judge who sentenced Saddam Hussein to death, it was reported Sunday. Judge Raouf Abdel-Rahman, who presided over the dictator’s trial in 2006, was … > [@](#): > > Rampaging jihadists captured and killed the Iraqi judge who sentenced Saddam Hussein to death, it was reported Sunday. > > Judge Raouf Abdel-Rahman, who presided over the dictator’s trial in 2006, was seized as he left Baghdad and summarily executed, the Macedonian International News Agency reported, citing Egyptian newspaper Al-Mesyroon and a Jordanian parliamentarian’s Facebook page. > > The reported slaying would be a shocking development in the Sunni terror campaign sweeping across Iraq. I think clearly that there is a Sunni rump state being carved out of Syria and Iraq. I do not see any way in which the Iraqi government could bring _itself_ to reconcile with its Sunni compatriots. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/186 "2014-06-25T22:52:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Sad news, the man who was judge and ordered Saddam’s execution has now been executed himself. > > [Murder of Saddam’s judge brings Iraq closer to the brink](http://nypost.com/2014/06/23/saddam-judges-slay-brings-iraq-closer-to-brink/) > > I think clearly that there is a Sunni rump state being carved out of Syria and Iraq. I do not see any way in which the Iraqi government could bring _itself_ to reconcile with its Sunni compatriots. From the above link: > [@](#): > > Iran’s supreme leader declared Sunday that his state won’t be joining forces with America in fighting ISIS. “We don’t support any foreign interference in Iraq, and we’re strongly opposed to US interference there,” Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said. > Although Iran has vowed to help defend Baghdad, Khamenei said Iraq must deal with the crisis without US involvement. > > “The United States is dissatisfied with the result of elections in Iraq, and they want to deprive the Iraqi people of their achievement of a democratic system, which they achieved without US interference,” he said. lolwut? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/187 "2014-06-26T13:58:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Could you give some reason you think it’s remotely possible? I mean Jordan’s military is 10X the size of ISIL and has an airforce. Jordanians would be defending their homes and ISIL is mostly foreigners. Do you know some weapon ISIL has up it’s sleeve? Well, don’t forget, in any potential future where ISIS threatens Jordan, it has already consolidated its rule over northern Iraq and all of Syria and probably Lebanon too. I don’t expect that future to come, but if it does Jordan would have something to worry about – and, for all I know, ISIS might find sympathizers inside Jordan. Certainly they would if they added Palestinian liberation to their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/188 "2014-06-26T14:05:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, don’t forget, in any potential future where ISIS threatens Jordan, it has already consolidated its rule over northern Iraq and all of Syria and probably Lebanon too. I don’t expect that future to come, but if it does Jordan would have something to worry about – and, for all I know, ISIS might find sympathizers inside Jordan. Certainly they would if they added Palestinian liberation to their agenda. You think Russia is going to let ISIL take over Syria? Not a chance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/189 "2014-06-26T14:46:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You think Russia is going to let ISIL take over Syria? Not a chance. Russia? What can **they** do about it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/190 "2014-06-26T14:55:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Russia? What can **they** do about it? They have a rather sizable military or so I hear. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/191 "2014-06-26T15:27:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They have a rather sizable military or so I hear. Yes, but it is a long, long time since they deployed it to any zone not on or within their borders. That would be a big game-changer; other countries might not like it, the Ukraine situation has made things there too tense already. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/192 "2014-06-27T16:22:49Z")
[Obama is asking Congress for $500 million to train and arm “vetted” Syrian rebels.](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/26/obama-seeks-500mtotrainequipsyriarebels.html) This is shaking out into a multi-sided war like the Lebanese Civil War. The U.S. is still against Assad but also against ISIS. Iran is for Assad but against ISIS. And so on. It’s hard to see how that can end well. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/193 "2014-06-28T19:59:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You think Russia is going to let ISIL take over Syria? Not a chance. Do you think all the nations of the world are going to let ISIS or anything like it take over any large tract of territory anywhere? Tikrit is described as a ghost town as ISF troops and Shiia volunteers launch a counter-offensive to retake the city. If the populations in these ISIS captured towns in the proposed overall terror-driven caliphate are able to leave - then the terrorists have no one to terrorize and to hold hostage against being bombed back to hell, Maybe these thieves and killers have indigenous support in some towns they siezed but in not seeing it much in Iraq. The ‘coward militants’ were unable to take the refinery near Baiji. > [@](#): > > The Iraqi army released a video on Thursday showing it in control of the Baiji oil refinery, 200km north of Baghdad. > Major-General Qassim Atta al-Moussawi said the army repelled attackers on Wednesday and “killed all the militants who approached the perimeter of Baiji refinery.” > > “Baiji refinery has turned into a graveyard for the coward militants,” Moussawi said. > Baiji lies in territory captured about two weeks ago by the ISIL fighters and its Sunni allies. ISIL still controls the town of Baiji, which is next to the refinery. [http://www.chronicle.co.zw/iraqi-military-battles-for-control-of-tikrit/](http://www.chronicle.co.zw/iraqi-military-battles-for-control-of-tikrit/) Have you seen the headlines the past week and a half. The ‘terrorists had seized the oil refinery’ over and over and over. Now that they apoarently have not - the government keeping control over the refinery is buried down deep into stories about other events. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/194 "2014-06-28T20:28:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What “allow”? They’d fight ISIS to resist it, of course. The question is whether they’d win. Are you kidding? You think Jordan’s Bedouin army would allow their chieftain, a descendant of the prophet to be deposed? They’re far larger, better equipped and better trained. With the obvious exception of the Israelis, they’re the highest regarded military in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/195 "2014-06-28T20:32:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, don’t forget, in any potential future where ISIS threatens Jordan, it has already consolidated its rule over northern Iraq and all of Syria and probably Lebanon too. I don’t expect that future to come, but if it does Jordan would have something to worry about – and, for all I know, ISIS might find sympathizers inside Jordan. Certainly they would if they added Palestinian liberation to their agenda. The Hashemites are vastly more popular amongst the Palestinians now than they used to be in the 60s and when the PLO tried to overthrow them they got spanked. Beyond that, Al Quaeda has never been popular or trusted by the Palestinians. With all due respect, your fears are unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/196 "2014-06-30T12:16:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Isis rebels declare ‘Islamic state’ in Iraq and Syria** > > Jihadist militant group Isis has said it is establishing a caliphate, or Islamic state, on the territories it controls in Iraq and Syria. > > It also proclaimed the group’s leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, as caliph and “leader for Muslims everywhere”. > > Setting up a state governed under strict Islamic law has long been a goal of many jihadists. > > Meanwhile, Iraq’s army continued an offensive to retake the northern city of Tikrit from the Isis-led rebels. > > The city was seized by the insurgents on 11 June as they swept across large parts of northern-western Iraq. > > In a separate development, Israel called for the creation of an independent Kurdish state in response to the gain made by the Sunni rebels in Iraq. > **[Isis rebels declare 'Islamic state' in Iraq and Syria](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28082962)** > > Jihadist militant group Isis declares the establishment of a caliphate, or Islamic state, on the territories it controls in Iraq and Syria. Although it might be stated as a formality, it will no doubt resonate with alot of people in the Middle East, and seems the Sunni in that area are being used a launching pad for ideological principles. Slow clap to Saudi Arabia for funding this madness. I can only hope that for the foreign members of this barbarism, that they realise what a hollow vision they’ve come to realise. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/197 "2014-06-30T14:46:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Slow clap to Saudi Arabia for funding this madness. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/198 "2014-06-30T18:21:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html) > [@](#): > > But in the years they were getting started, a key component of ISIS’s support came from wealthy individuals in the Arab Gulf States of Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Sometimes the support came with the tacit nod of approval from those regimes; often, it took advantage of poor money laundering protections in those states, according to officials, experts, and leaders of the Syrian opposition, which is fighting ISIS as well as the regime. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/199 "2014-06-30T19:08:36Z")
Everything I’ve read is that the regime itself in Saudi Arabia has been trying to support the non-Al Qaida portion of the rebels. > **[Syria crisis: Saudi Arabia to spend millions to train new rebel force](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/07/syria-crisis-saudi-arabia-spend-millions-new-rebel-force)** > > Riyadh 'fighting two wars in Syria' as new force Jaysh al-Islam excludes al-Qaida affiliates in bid to defeat Assad regime > [@](#): > > Saudi Arabia is preparing to spend millions of dollars to arm and train thousands of Syrian fighters in a new national rebel force to help defeat Bashar al-Assad and act as a counterweight to increasingly powerful jihadi organisations. So while I am sure a few Saudi billionaires fund whoever they damn well please, I doubt your columnists claim of “tacit nod of approval” from the regimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/200 "2014-06-30T19:19:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Everything I’ve read is that the regime itself in Saudi Arabia has been trying to support the non-Al Qaida portion of the rebels. > > [Syria crisis: Saudi Arabia to spend millions to train new rebel force | Syria | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/07/syria-crisis-saudi-arabia-spend-millions-new-rebel-force) > > So while I am sure a few Saudi billionaires fund whoever they damn well please, I doubt your columnists claim of “tacit nod of approval” from the regimes. Well it would be quite easy for that Saudi government to stop the tap of money going to these guys wouldn’t it, so why doesn’t it go after them more forcefully? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=11)