# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/241 "2014-07-06T15:33:54Z")
The Russians have already brought in their version of the A-10 to Iraq. More power to them. Let Putin deal with it. My question is: if the leader of ISIL shows up at a mosque to garner support, is the mosque and those who attend it fair game? Considering ISIL has targeted Shiites and Shiite mosques in recent weeks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/242 "2014-07-10T17:30:59Z")
[ISIS is planning to destroy the ancient Assyrian “idols” in the Mosul Museum.](http://www.npr.org/2014/07/09/330183802/the-plight-of-mosuls-museum-iraqi-antiquities-at-risk-of-ruin) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/243 "2014-07-10T18:32:43Z")
Which shows just how crazy these people are. I mean, the original Caliphate these clowns claim to be trying to emulate didn’t destroy these antiquities, but no, I guess that the Umayyads simply weren’t Muslim enough. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/244 "2014-07-10T18:51:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Which shows just how crazy these people are. I mean, the original Caliphate these clowns claim to be trying to emulate didn’t destroy these antiquities, but no, I guess that the Umayyads simply weren’t Muslim enough. After what the Taliban did to those ancient colossi of the Buddha in Afghanistan, I guess we should not be surprise any more. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/245 "2014-07-11T05:56:50Z")
Damn. Almost makes you pine for the days of good ol’ Khomeini, who for all his (many, many, many) faults at _least_ didn’t dynamite Persepolis. Whole different kettle of fish, of course, what with being a Shi’ite and all. But still. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/246 "2014-07-11T12:40:38Z")
In the spirit of kicking a man when he’s down and out. [Iraq conflict: Kurds seize two oil fields in north](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28265064) > [@](#): > > Iraqi Kurds have taken over two oil fields amid a growing dispute with the government in Baghdad, Iraqi and Kurdish sources say. > > Kurdish peshmerga forces seized control of production facilities at the Bai Hassan and Kirkuk oil fields in the north of the country on Friday. > > Kurdish MPs have also withdrawn from Iraq’s central government. > > They did so after Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki accused the Kurds of harbouring extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/247 "2014-07-11T13:54:36Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > In the spirit of kicking a man when he’s down and out. > > [Iraq conflict: Kurds seize two oil fields in north](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28265064) Can’t exactly blame 'em, and I for one see nothing wrong in an independent Iraqi Kurdistan. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/248 "2014-07-11T19:20:29Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Can’t exactly blame 'em, and I for one see nothing wrong in an independent Iraqi Kurdistan. Nor do I however the 3 other countries with parts of the ‘greater Kurdistan’ do. Not to mention what bits of Iraq Kurds consider Kurdish and what parts the other parts or Iraq thinks are theirs overlap. Especially Kirkuk and environs. There’s no way any of this ends well. Three way civil war inside 18 months. Mission Accomplished eh George? Edited to add - the man i was kicking was the former poster. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/249 "2014-07-11T22:28:03Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > There’s no way any of this ends well. Three way civil war inside 18 months. They’re having a two-way civil war **now.** ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/250 "2014-07-12T09:20:51Z")
Just how many groups are ISIS fighting anyway? Counting both the Syrian and the Iraqi campaign, I count has at least _seven_ groups already! :eek: 1. ISIS vs. Syrian government troops, propped up by Iran, Russia, &c. 2. ISIS vs. the [al-Nusra Front](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front) (i.e. Syrian Al-Qaeda). 3. ISIS vs. the [Free Syrian Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army) (“the main opposition army group”). 4. ISIS vs. the [Army of Mujahedeen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Mujahedeen) (specifically formed to fight ISIS). 5. ISIS vs. the [Jaish al-Muhajireen wal-Ansar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaish_al-Muhajireen_wal-Ansar) (former ISIS allies, had a falling out). 6. ISIS vs. the [People’s Protection Units](http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/07/10/ISIS-intensifies-offensive-against-Kurds-in-Syria-.html) (i.e. Syrian Kurds). 7. ISIS vs. Iraqi government troops, propped up by Iran, Russia, &c. … And I suppose it’s a question of time before at least _two_ new fronts open up as well. That’s be: 1. ISIS vs. _peshmerga_ (i.e. Iraqi Kurds). 2. ISIS vs. former Sunni allies in Iraq, such as the [Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_the_Men_of_the_Naqshbandi_Order) &c. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/251 "2014-07-12T15:29:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They’re having a two-way civil war **now.** And as the Kurds continue their land and oil grab it’ll be 3 way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/252 "2014-07-12T21:24:21Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And as the Kurds continue their land and oil grab it’ll be 3 way. Only if the government decides to fight them over it. I don’t think it will. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/253 "2014-07-12T21:32:26Z")
1. ISIS vs Saudis What does it say that all those groups have come before it, and yet it still is able to hold them off? Doesn’t bode well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/254 "2014-07-12T21:32:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Only if the government decides to fight them over it. I don’t think it will. Yeah, who cares about all the oil in the territory the Kurds are claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/255 "2014-07-12T22:41:27Z")
I forgot at least one: Hezbollah, with which ISIS is in “direct conflict” according to [this handy chart](http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/EDITED_conflicts_graph-12.jpg). There are probably even more groups that I’ve forgotten to list - I don’t follow the Syrian civil war very well. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > 1. ISIS vs Saudis My guess would be that Saudi troops won’t get directly involved. Same for Jordanian troops. Turkish troops, I don’t know. Iranian troops are already involved, of course, but propping up the Iraqi government rather than going solo. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/256 "2014-07-15T22:52:44Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I suppose it’s a question of time before at least _two_ new fronts open up as well. That’s be: > > […] > > 1. ISIS vs. former Sunni allies in Iraq, such as the [Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_the_Men_of_the_Naqshbandi_Order) &c. [It has begun.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/14/us-iraq-security-idUSKBN0FJ20P20140714) > [@](#): > > Police in Muqdadiya, a town 80 km (50 miles) northeast of the capital, said residents from the nearby town of Saadiya found the 12 corpses on Monday after fighting overnight between Islamic State fighters and the Naqshbandi Army, a group led by Saddam allies. […] Residents say the town is a stronghold of Naqshbandi Army fighters who supported the Islamic State when it swept into the area, but have since clashed with the group. […] The people who found the bodies said the men were Naqshbandi fighters in their 20s and 30s, and blamed the Islamic State for the execution-style killings. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/257 "2014-07-16T10:10:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Only if the government decides to fight them over it. I don’t think it will. What ‘Government’? You can be absolutely sure the other factions will not in the medium term, react well to the ‘all your oil belong to us’ approach. ‘Greater’ Kurdistan is a lot more than the current Kurdistan, even in what I guess we can still call ‘Iraq’. There’s no way this ends well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/258 "2014-07-24T16:13:52Z")
New ISIS policy: [Compulsory female genital mutilation,](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-women-girls-fgm-mosul-un) at least in Mosul. Some things are shocking without being surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/259 "2014-07-24T18:03:25Z")
Came across an interesting analysis. Joshua Landis, director for the Center for Middle East Studies and Associate Professor at University of Oklahoma, describes the ISIS wars in Syria in Iraq as “The Great Sorting Out,” comparable to WWII in (Eastern) Europe: > [@](#): > > Perhaps the single greatest outcome of WWII in Europe was the creation of nation states that were more ethnically homogeneous than ever before. > > […] > > Poland was 68% Polish in 1938. By 1946 it was overwhelmingly Polish. Germany was nearly all German. Czechoslovakia, which was populated by 33% minorities, including Germans, Hungarians, Carpathian Ukrainians and Jews before the war, shed this third of its population. One can go down the line of Eastern European countries, Hungary, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania and find the same ethnic cleansing and great sorting out. Thirteen million Germans were expelled or transferred from the Eastern European countries between 1945 and 1947. They had lived in these countries stretching from Poland in the north to the Ukraine and Romania in the South for hundreds of years. > > Central European nation states were tidied up and their peoples rearranged according to nationality. Unlucky nationalities, such as the Jews and Gypsies that had no homeland, were in some cases exterminated. > > This is what is going on in the Levant. > > For example, the Jews, who used to be scattered throughout the Middle East, were driven out of their native cities (the Jews of Baghdad in 1918 were the largest religious community in the city). They have collected in Israel, from which they expelled the Palestinians. > > Christians have all but disappeared from many countries of the region. Anatolia was 18% Christian in 1914. By 1922 they constituted less than 1% of Turkey’s population. In Palestine and Iraq, their populations have been decimated by nationalist foment and religious intolerance and discrimination. They same thing is happening in Syria to Christians today. I will not be shocked if by the end of troubles in Syria, the 20% religious minorities have been driven out and the 10% Kurds have joined their brethren in Iraq to form an independent nation. The Alawites today are behaving like the Germans of the Sudetenland during the first years of the war. But it is altogether imaginable that their time will come, when they will be treated like the guilty minority of Germans in Czechoslovakia. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/260 "2014-07-24T18:14:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > New ISIS policy: [Compulsory female genital mutilation,](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-women-girls-fgm-mosul-un) at least in Mosul. > > Some things are shocking without being surprising. It’s been going around that the story is false. It doesn’t sound terribly plausible — fundamentalist Muslims aren’t normally big advocates of FGM, and Syria and Iraq aren’t big centres of FGM. ETA: [cite](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=14)