# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/261 "2014-08-06T15:36:40Z")
[ISIS invades Lebanon.](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183777#.U-JLNZsg_Sc) The Lebanese yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/262 "2014-08-06T15:41:24Z")
Apparently, tens of thousands of civilians are facing imminent death from ISIS. > **[Stranded on an Iraqi mountaintop, thousands of Yazidis face death](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iraqi-yazidis-stranded-on-isolated-mountaintop-begin-to-die-of-thirst/2014/08/05/57cca985-3396-41bd-8163-7a52e5e72064_story.html?hpid=z1&Post%2Bgeneric=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost)** > > Encircled by extremists with no food or water, children have begun to die. They are members of the Yazidi sect. Apparently, the World yawns. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/263 "2014-08-06T16:44:07Z")
Jesus fucking Christ, this is crazy. Absolutely did _not_ expect IS to rout the Peshmerga - [and it appears I’m not the only one](http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/routs-peshmerga-takes-control-sinjar-mountains-jeapordizes-yazidi-homeland/): > [@](#): > > A few days ago, everyone in Kurdistan was confident that all areas under Peshmerga control would remain impervious to jihadi incursions. The collapse of the Peshmerga—who had the advantage of the mountain’s higher ground—in the face of the IS onslaught, came as a surprise. So sad and horrible: > [@](#): > > Just over two weeks ago, another ancient religious community was eliminated, en masse, from its homeland, when Christians were expelled from Mosul. Prior to this, IS engaged in high levels of violence against the Shabak minority that inhabits villages just outside of Mosul. Many Shabak, as well as Shiite Turkomen, fled IS violence for the relative safety of Sinjar, and today are being made to flee again, joined this time by the indigenous Yazidi population. Also did _not_ expect IS to go into Lebanon, gaining even more enemies in the process: The Lebanese Army, however weak, and Hezbollah, which generally seems to be pretty competent… Though **BrainGlutton** ’s link above notes they have not, as of yet, joined the fight: > [@](#): > > However, the Shiite militia has deemed the 11 kilometers separating Arsal from Labweh, a bastion of support for Hezbollah, a red line which could trigger Hezbollah’s direct intervention. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/264 "2014-08-06T20:11:16Z")
\*\*Brainglutton \*\* I was wondering if you could make sense of this opinion I read about the Islamists, I can’t remember where it was from, but it stated that they if could try and bring about this revolution to take them back to the beginning of Islam, there is a possibility that they would find out nothing is there, I was wondering if you could make sense of that? As for the Kurdish situation, this is increasingly looking like a ‘World War’ in the Middle East, much like that African ‘World War’ back in the 90’s and early 00’s in central Africa. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/265 "2014-08-06T20:32:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > \*\*Brainglutton \*\* I was wondering if you could make sense of this opinion I read about the Islamists, I can’t remember where it was from, but it stated that they if could try and bring about this revolution to take them back to the beginning of Islam, there is a possibility that they would find out nothing is there, I was wondering if you could make sense of that? Well, I read in [_Islam: A Short History,_](http://www.amazon.com/Islam-History-Modern-Library-Chronicles/dp/081296618X) by Karen Armstrong, that Mohammed’s Islam was like Judaism, not Christianity – i.e., he saw it as the ethnically-appropriate religion for Arabs alone (the children of Abraham through Ishmael, as Jews are children of Abraham through Isaac), and not the One True Faith to which all the world must ultimately convert. And for some time after Mohammed died, the expanding Islamic Empire did not encourage nor in most cases allow conquered infidels to convert to Islam, and the Arabs in the conquered lands lived in separate garrison-towns to keep them pure and uncorrupted by the local people and culture and religion. But there have been a lot of changes since then. The above is disputable, I’ve seen it disputed on the SDMB. But, that sort of thing, perhaps. Modern Muslims – especially non-Arab Muslims – might not to want to look too close to “the beginning of Islam.” It might disturb them. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/266 "2014-08-07T06:29:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, I read in [_Islam: A Short History,_](http://www.amazon.com/Islam-History-Modern-Library-Chronicles/dp/081296618X) by Karen Armstrong, that Mohammed’s Islam was like Judaism, not Christianity – i.e., he saw it as the ethnically-appropriate religion for Arabs alone (the children of Abraham through Ishmael, as Jews are children of Abraham through Isaac), and not the One True Faith to which all the world must ultimately convert. And for some time after Mohammed died, the expanding Islamic Empire did not encourage nor in most cases allow conquered infidels to convert to Islam, and the Arabs in the conquered lands lived in separate garrison-towns to keep them pure and uncorrupted by the local people and culture and religion. But there have been a lot of changes since then. This sounds somewhat similar to the theory advanced by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook in _[Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism:_The_Making_of_the_Islamic_World)_: > [@](#): > > According to the book Hagarism, the Arab conquests and the formation of the caliphate were a peninsular Arab movement inspired by Jewish messianism. In alliance with the Jews, the Arabs attempted to reclaim the Promised Land from the Byzantine Empire. The Qur’an was a product of 8th-century edits of various materials drawn from a variety of Judeo-Christian and Middle-Eastern sources. The Prophet Muhammad was the herald of Umar “the redeemer”, a Judaic messiah. Does Armstrong refer to Crone’s and Cook’s book? At least Crone has distanced herself from this early work of hers: > [@](#): > > “The central thesis of that book was, I now think, mistaken. Over the years, I have gradually come to think that the evidence we had to support the thesis was not sufficient or internally consistent enough.” […] “We were young, and we did not know anything. The book was just a hypothesis, not a conclusive finding,” said Crone. “I do no think that the book’s thesis is valid.” Her later - and presumably more mature - works, also on early Islam, sound very interesting; alas, I haven’t gotten around to reading them just yet. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/267 "2014-08-07T09:38:20Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Also did _not_ expect IS to go into Lebanon, gaining even more enemies in the process: The Lebanese Army, however weak, and Hezbollah, which generally seems to be pretty competent… Though **BrainGlutton** ’s link above notes they have not, as of yet, joined the fight: Well, the Iraq army basically armed them to the teeth by running away and the Iraqi PM acted as their recruiting officer with his corrupt ‘winner takes all’ sectarian attitude . They’ve long controlled oil fields in Syria and no matter whatever the denials elements of the Saudi state have long been their backers. They’ve become a pretty formidable army in terms of equipment, manpower and motivation and they are estimated to have billions of dollars, which means they can buy all kinds of shit no one wants people like that to have. I’m certain that behind the scenes the USA is getting ready to administer an almighty smack-down once all the military and diplomatic ducks are lined up in a row. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/268 "2014-08-07T12:21:02Z")
[Here’s](http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2014/Aug-06/266224-large-numbers-of-militants-withdraw-from-arsal-official.ashx#axzz39dDJIGoh) a report from a Lebanese newspaper saying a deal was reached yesterday for IS to retreat from Arsal. [Here’s](http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2014/Aug-07/266344-seven-lebanese-policemen-freed-in-arsal-security-source.ashx#axzz39dDJIGoh) another one - from today - saying that the Lebanese Army now controls the town: > [@](#): > > … Sources said groups loyal to Imad Jomaa, the Syrian national whose arrest by the Lebanese Army over the weekend triggered the battle in Arsal, pulled out toward Syria following clashes with Lebanese troops around Wadi Sweid and Wadi Hosn, the farthest east points in Arsal, close to the border. Is that site reliable? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/269 "2014-08-07T12:27:33Z")
As reliable as any i guess. Doesn’t help[these fleeing Christians though](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28686998). What a bloody mess. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/270 "2014-08-07T14:06:42Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > . . . and no matter whatever the denials elements of the Saudi state have long been their backers. Cite? For the **state** backing them, not individual princes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/271 "2014-08-07T17:21:49Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Jesus fucking Christ, this is crazy. > > Absolutely did _not_ expect IS to rout the Peshmerga - [and it appears I’m not the only one](http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/routs-peshmerga-takes-control-sinjar-mountains-jeapordizes-yazidi-homeland/) [Now the Kurds are counter-attacking ISIS near Arbil](http://news.yahoo.com/kurds-islamic-state-clash-near-kurdish-regional-capital-093454886.html) – with Iraqi government air support, yet. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/272 "2014-08-08T03:06:50Z")
[Obama authorizes targeted airstrikes against ISIS.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/obama-weighs-military-strikes-to-aid-trapped-iraqis-officials-say.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/273 "2014-08-08T13:36:06Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > [Obama authorizes targeted airstrikes against ISIS.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/obama-weighs-military-strikes-to-aid-trapped-iraqis-officials-say.html?_r=0) [And does them, too.](http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-ready-strike-militants-iraq/story?id=24897334) ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/274 "2014-08-08T19:12:12Z")
What the US ought to do is tell ISIS “We’ll bring back the Saddam family and the Baathists, and rearm them, like you had in the good old days when Iraq was a decent country. See if you wanna mess with them”. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/275 "2014-08-08T19:26:02Z")
Does this ISIS situation have any small parallel with the Bolsheviks revolution? Not in terms of doctrine or ideology, but in the application of terror and organisation. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/276 "2014-08-09T00:52:17Z")
The scary thing aside from the murder of non-muslim people is how ISIS has seized sophisticated weaponry from the Iraqi military they have defeated…weaponry that the US had given the Iraqi military, including things like Abrams tanks. And the other really scary thing is me reading that the ISIS fighters now control the Mosul dam, and if they blow that sucker up, it will cause a flood of massive proportions, apparently all the way to Baghdad. That would really suck. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/277 "2014-08-09T02:00:31Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > The scary thing aside from the murder of non-muslim people is how ISIS has seized sophisticated weaponry from the Iraqi military they have defeated…weaponry that the US had given the Iraqi military, including things like Abrams tanks. But doesn’t that stuff require a huge amount of training to know how to operate–and massively more on how to maintain it? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/278 "2014-08-09T02:47:00Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > But doesn’t that stuff require a huge amount of training to know how to operate–and massively more on how to maintain it? That’s for sure! Many nations have jet fighter aircraft…but how many nations train their pilots for hundreds of hours? Many nations have battle tanks, but how many have trained crews who comprehend advanced battlefield tactics? Training is one of the preeminent “force multipliers” in modern warfare. The “highway of death” wasn’t only the result of better equipment. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/279 "2014-08-09T16:42:07Z")
There is only one way to stop ISIS or IS or whatever they are called. That is with US boots on the ground. And it will eventually morph into that. The thing is we are back to the Vietnam syndrome in the sense of invading Iraq in the first place was absurd, a giant mistake, a glib opportunity for an oil grab plain and simple and now it’s the “once bitten, twice shy” syndrome. So really, the only way to get support for such a move would be another outrage, “Gulf of Tonkin”, “Bengazi” type of thing to garner some support. President Obama’s biggest accomplishment has been getting the US the heck out of there. Now, it will be very, very difficult to get support (except for the perpetual warmongers John McCain and Lindsey Graham, of course) to put US lives on the line once again with their boots on the ground, when now is when they are really needed. That’s just the way it looks from here at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/280 "2014-08-09T19:19:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s for sure! Many nations have jet fighter aircraft…but how many nations train their pilots for hundreds of hours? Many nations have battle tanks, but how many have trained crews who comprehend advanced battlefield tactics? > > Training is one of the preeminent “force multipliers” in modern warfare. The “highway of death” wasn’t only the result of better equipment. Well the Iraqis had training on how to use those Abrams, but when it came time to fight against IS they got out and ran away on foot, leaving the tanks to the enemy Meanwhile in Syria the Islamic State has captured a large amount of heavy artillery, because the Syrians were in too much of a hurry to escape to blow the ammo dump. They’ve now brought that artillery into use against Syria’s largest airbase in Raqqa province, and will soon extirpate all Assad forces from Eastern Syria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=15)