# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/281 "2014-08-09T20:01:36Z")
Well even though they are fighting on multiple fronts, they still have time to fight moral degeneracy: Here is a woman stoned to death for adultery (note none of the locals came forward to throw a stone, so it was entirely Islamic State fighters): [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/women-stoned-death-syria-adultery-24914576](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/women-stoned-death-syria-adultery-24914576) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/282 "2014-08-09T20:51:45Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > The scary thing aside from the murder of non-muslim people is how ISIS has seized sophisticated weaponry from the Iraqi military they have defeated…weaponry that the US had given the Iraqi military, including things like Abrams tanks. > > And the other really scary thing is me reading that the ISIS fighters now control the Mosul dam, and if they blow that sucker up, it will cause a flood of massive proportions, apparently all the way to Baghdad. That would really suck. They will destroy “un-Islamic” stuff, but they want to control infrastructure. I doubt they’ll blow up the damn. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/283 "2014-08-10T01:04:22Z")
Are we the only western nation currently trying to contain ISIS? Surely the other NATO members also have the technological capability to strike them. I haven’t heard of them pitching in. Why is this? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/284 "2014-08-10T01:14:58Z")
Personally, I think ISIS is eventually going to piss of the rest of the region, and I’d much rather see any major response coming from them. All the US can do by getting to involved at this point is to help recruitment. I’d like to see the UN do what needs to happen to manage the humanitarian situation, and for the actual fight against ISIS to come from closer powers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/285 "2014-08-10T01:19:48Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > Are we the only western nation currently trying to contain ISIS? Surely the other NATO members also have the technological capability to strike them. I haven’t heard of them pitching in. Why is this? Just us. Some have said they will help out with the humanitarian drops, but not fighting. It’s just us because we have lots of Americans in Erbil and we don’t want to evacuate them. We won’t do that is left for the reader to speculate. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/286 "2014-08-10T01:29:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They will destroy “un-Islamic” stuff, but they want to control infrastructure. I doubt they’ll blow up the damn. Agreed. They’re not barbarians. They’re something vastly more dangerous. Civilized, well-educated folks who, like Hamas and the mullahs of Iran, are utterly certain that they’re doing the right thing and for the greater good. ---
**Author:** ![dofe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/287 "2014-08-10T01:40:05Z")
Fascinating report by [VICE News as a reporter followed Islamic State fighters](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs) to the frontlines. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/288 "2014-08-10T09:09:20Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Personally, I think ISIS is eventually going to piss of the rest of the region, and I’d much rather see any major response coming from them. All the US can do by getting to involved at this point is to help recruitment. I’d like to see the UN do what needs to happen to manage the humanitarian situation, and for the actual fight against ISIS to come from closer powers. Who in the region do you think will be pissed off? They’re already hammering Syria and Iraq, they’ve raided Lebanon and they’re mortal enemies of the Shi’ites in Iran. Turkey were supporting them, although they seem to have become more neutral now. Jordan and Saudi are renowned for their incompetent militaries, if they got involved it would just be more equipment for the IS. Barring a full scale intervention by Israel, Turkey or the US, which won’t happen, or Iran which might if Samarra falls, there’s nothing to be done. The airstrikes haven’t worked, incidentally, as the IS forces are still advancing on Erbil. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/289 "2014-08-10T09:31:12Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > Are we the only western nation currently trying to contain ISIS? Surely the other NATO members also have the technological capability to strike them. I haven’t heard of them pitching in. Why is this? The UK has sent in the SAS ([SAS deployed in Iraq: British special forces sent to hunt down Islamist militants](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sas-deployed-iraq-british-special-4026869#.U-bIo_ldXNn)), who knows what other nations have special forces on the ground, and I believe Italy has also expressed its willingness to military assistance to the Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/290 "2014-08-10T15:44:24Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The UK has sent in the SAS ([SAS deployed in Iraq: British special forces sent to hunt down Islamist militants](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sas-deployed-iraq-british-special-4026869#.U-bIo_ldXNn)), who knows what other nations have special forces on the ground, and I believe Italy has also expressed its willingness to military assistance to the Kurds. We’re dealing with people who stole military equipment and don’t have a clue how to use it. They have no air support nor the ability to deal with stand-off weapons. At this point SAS groups don’t have to engage the militants. They only have to target them for stand-off weapons. We’re in a position to send B-52’s and other altitude platforms into the area to release the weapons as directed by the SAS. Being able to destroy the militants is different than actually doing the work. It’s now governed by the political system in place. We can’t just go in and rain down explosives. If we were given a green light ISIS would lose all of it’s heavy weapons in a very short period of time or be forced to retreat it back into Syria. This would make it much easier for towns to defend themselves long enough for Iraq’s military to pick up the slack. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/291 "2014-08-10T17:06:26Z")
> **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile,Kurdish military sources have told Al Jazeera’s Jane Arraf in theIraqi Kurdish capital of Erbil that the villages of Ghwar and Makhmour, which lie 40km south of Erbil, have been retaken by Peshmerga forces. > > The development came after another round of US airstrikes there earlier on Sunday. Where is your info from, blindboyard? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/292 "2014-08-11T02:40:13Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > Fascinating report by [VICE News as a reporter followed Islamic State fighters](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs) to the frontlines. VICE totally fucking rocks. They just keep getting better, too. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/293 "2014-08-11T07:14:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2014810104913824937) > Where is your info from, blindboyard? Those villages were, indeed, retaken by the peshmerga, and that’s because they’ve finally got some ammunition, not because of airstrikes. That happened after the advance I was talking about. Elsewhere, however, Jalawla was taken by the Islamic State. Meanwhile Maliki has started a coup against the President of Iraq to keep himself in office. [This is my source](http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/malikis-malarkey-wahabis-gone-wild-safavid-sadness-iraq-civil-war-part-ii.305921/page-40), incidentally, a thread elsewhere which sources various articles and seems to have a lot of up to date information. People there following the ISIS twitter feed and so on. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/294 "2014-08-11T11:11:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This would make it much easier for towns to defend themselves long enough for Iraq’s military to pick up the slack. And how long might that be? After many years of training the first time they were asked to ‘pick up the slack’ they effectively threw their arms at ISIS and ran away, leaving ISIS to loot bases and armouries. (Something which will no doubt be repeated in Afghanistan sooner or later). As far as I can see there is effectively no ‘Iraqi Army’, just a rag tag of sectarian militia’s. The only half effective force is the Kurdish one and they are interested mainly in holding borders the rest of Iraq don’t concede them in the first place. They are fighting for a ‘greater Kurdistan’, not for an ‘Iraq’ which barely exists. Malaki certainly has no intention of even paying lip-service to a no-factional Iraq, which is part of the problem in the first place. (If I were him I’d start worrying about what happened to Diem mind you). Th Kurds are fine with air-cover but don’t look so hot without it and the USA cannot write them a blank air-cover cheque when it might be cashed to form a ‘Greater Kurdistan’. Ironically the people we’re going to end up supporting as clandestinely as we can against The Islamic State is going to be Assad’s regime. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/295 "2014-08-11T12:03:48Z")
In all my years of studying political science, I have never come across a mess and muddle as large as what is being lived in the Middle East at this moment in history. My enemy’s enemy is my friend is so upside down, backwards and reversed, in spades. Very little is making sense. Not many folks have got it straight about whom to bomb. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/296 "2014-08-11T13:03:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. They’re not barbarians. > > They’re something vastly more dangerous. > > Civilized, well-educated folks who, like Hamas and the mullahs of Iran, are utterly certain that they’re doing the right thing and for the greater good. We blew up dams in WW2 and I can see The Islamic State trying. Takes a lot to blow up a dam though. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/297 "2014-08-11T13:11:54Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > In all my years of studying political science, I have never come across a mess and muddle as large as what is being lived in the Middle East at this moment in history. My enemy’s enemy is my friend is so upside down, backwards and reversed, in spades. > > Very little is making sense. Not many folks have got it straight about whom to bomb. Very true. It’s at moments like these where ‘we told you so’ seems wholly inadequate. Once we’ve finished quietly selling out what few rebel groups haven’t already signed up to the Isis band-wagon I’ve no doubt we’ll be quietly backing Assad just like we backed Saddam against Iran. “Here, have some anthrax and a shit-ton of agricultural credits.” Edited to add: [US Should Back Syria’s Assad Against ISIS](http://www.thenation.com/blog/180522/us-should-back-syrias-assad-against-isis). > [@](#): > > One key to solving the ISIS crisis is hunkered down in the presidential palace in Damascus, and his name is Bashar al-Assad. Demonized by the United States and by neoconservatives long before he waged a ruthless, take-no-prisoners blitzkrieg against the American- and Saudi-supported rebellion that began in 2011, Assad has proved to everyone (with the possible exception of Secretary of State John Kerry) that he’s staying put, at least for the foreseeable future. For all intents and purposes, Assad has won the civil war in Syria, and short of an Iraq-style invasion—which isn’t in the cards—there’s no way for the United States to oust Assad. Which is a good thing, because his ouster would immeasurably strengthen the extremists who’ve led the fight against him, including the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, now “the Islamic State,” the Caliphate-mongering radicals who are an Al Qaeda offshoot. On the other hand, by ending its support for the Syrian rebels, who don’t have a prayer anyway, the United States would strengthen Assad and allow him to crush ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/298 "2014-08-11T13:26:28Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > Fascinating report by [VICE News as a reporter followed Islamic State fighters](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs) to the frontlines. At around 07:08, a preacher claims that the group’s leader is a descendent of “Hussein.” Which Hussein would that be? Not the same Hussein the Shi’ites revere as the third Imam, right? I would have guessed the Sunnis hated that guy. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/299 "2014-08-11T13:41:35Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > At around 07:08, a preacher claims that the group’s leader is a descendent of “Hussein.” Which Hussein would that be? > > Not the same Hussein the Shi’ites revere as the third Imam, right? I would have guessed the Sunnis hated that guy. Grandson of Muhammed would be my guess. He’s one of the cool kids for both strands. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/300 "2014-08-11T14:00:51Z")
Here’s a very good article that gives an idea what we’re up against. [The jihadists who turned the tables](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/10/isis-syria-iraq-barack-obama-airstrikes) > [@](#): > > In the last two weeks alone, Isis has fought on five fronts: against the Iraqi army, the Kurdish peshmerga, the Syrian regime, the Syrian opposition and the Lebanese army. In Syria the group has all but consolidated control of the eastern provinces of Raqqa and Deir Ezzor, as it made advances against government forces in Raqqa and subdued most of the rebel forces in Deir Ezzor. It is also advancing into Aleppo, reaching the city’s eastern outskirts, and in Hasaka, and is battling the Kurdish militias in the north-east. In Iraq it has advanced to a point only half an hour’s drive from Irbil, the Kurdish capital. > > Yet these advances appear to be only the tip of the iceberg. Away from the publicised gains, Isis is quietly making progress on other fronts. Perhaps the most worrying is the fact that armed groups backed by the US have been co-opted by Isis. > > \ > > Even in Deraa, where Jabhat al-Nusra has steadily consolidated its presence, sources say that Isis has supporters close to the top leadership of the al-Qaida affiliate and there are clans willing to declare allegiance to Isis. Increasingly, Isis is becoming more sophisticated and resilient. Contrary to speculations that the group is overreaching itself, Isis gains the loyalty of more forces every time it controls a new area. It is expected that if the group makes headway into Aleppo, members of like-minded jihadi factions such as Ahrar al-Sham will defect and join its ranks. > > Beyond its advertised victories, Isis is building a vast network of supporters even within moderate ranks that could help it persist in the face of a military action similar to this weekend’s American air strikes. > > Time appears to be on its side, and unless there is a comprehensive political and military approach to fight it in both Iraq and Syria the group is here to stay. I’ve read previously that ISIS has billions of dollars from energy sales, saudi backers (well of course) and (inadvertently) the West (because we can’t seem to get it through our thick skulls that ‘not quite so insanely extreme’ does not equal ‘moderate’) They have very sophistcated equipment (including stingers we and the iraqi army directly or indirectly gave them). We have unwittingly been training them when we fondly imagined we were training ‘moderate’ rebels. This is more than a terrorist group, it’s an army with a territory and a financial base. Bombing a few trucks and mortar pits isn’t going to cut it. This needs an army. Are we going to do it? Not a chance. The Iraqi Army? Stop, my sides, you’re killing me. The Kurds? If armed and trained maybe, except we seem completely unable to train anyone to do anything other than scream ‘shut up and take my weapons’ at the first sign of trouble. And that’s not even mentioning the severe downside to a modern Kurdish Army casting it’s eyes in the direction of the Turkish, Iranian and Syrian components of Greater Kurdistan. Obi-Wan Assad, you’re our only hope. What a bloody mess. Well done Tony, well done George. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=16)