# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/21 "2014-06-11T01:28:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They don’t have to, but in comparison to the former British colonies of India and the US, on the surface, they appear to have nothing in common, but they have similarities in Law and the influences of British culture as they were both once parts of the British Empire, same goes with the Ottoman Turks in relation to their Arab realms, plus they’re nearly all Muslims, unless you’re denying that the Ottoman Turks left any tangible influence in the Middle East? The Ottoman Empire, like the Roman Empire before it, never tried to impose a common cultural or religious identity, and in fact most of its subjects were never in any way participatory citizens with any kind of equivalent or egalitarian representation. No one in Iraq thinks of themselves as being part of the “Ottoman” cultural group or any other common cultural identity. Lumping “Muslims” as if that gives them a shared cultural identity is the blithe ignorance regarding ethnic discord in the region; both the group that maintains primary control over Iraq, and the groups that seek overthrow of that regime identify as being Muslim of some bent, as do the regimes of Iran and Syria which are providing support to insurgents. This is akin to arguing that all Christian denominations, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Anglican are all in common agreement, and therefore the Thirty Year’s War and other disagreements never happened. > [@PastTense](#): > > Why exactly is this a threat to Western security? Tell us about this massive air power they have to move terrorists to Europe and the U.S. Oil. Oil. Oil. Oil. Oil. Oil. Oil. Et cetera, ad nauseum. Yes, we could ignore this entire region from a national security perspective if we were not tied to their petroleum reserves. But then that would put the control of energy for transportation use into anyone’s hands. > [@jayjay](#): > > I’ve been resisting the urge to suggest simply sending Archer and Lana over to take care of things all day. I’ve been resisting the observation. But since you kicked it off, “Do you want ants? Because this is how you get ants!” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/22 "2014-06-11T02:34:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Oh yes, that collective “Ottoman” identity. This is why everybody from the Balkans to the Arabian Peninsula speaks Turkish. > > Stranger Since Turkish wasn’t the language of the Empire, why would they? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/23 "2014-06-11T02:42:55Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is important to understand history; specifically, that Iraq, as a nation or shared cultural identity, doesn’t have any prior to the British Mandate which installed the Syrian-born Hashimite King Faisal. The state is entirely a fabrication of European nations, and owes its continued existence and highly varied leadership to direct support by Western powers. To nitpick here, King Faisal wasn’t Syrian born. He was born in Mecca, the third son of Sharif Hussein, and he was the one who, with the help of T.E. Lawrence, led the Arab Revolt. He’s the one played by Alec Guinness in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/24 "2014-06-11T04:51:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’ve been resisting the urge to suggest simply sending Archer and Lana over to take care of things all day. Hey **jayjay** … . ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/25 "2014-06-11T04:52:11Z")
**jayjay**. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/26 "2014-06-11T15:20:25Z")
Dissonance: > [@](#): > > The main problem with the Iraqi Army is that it’s the Iraqi Army. That’s its had ten years to get its act together and still hasn’t managed to isn’t very surprising. The Iraqi Army has performed poorly at best in every war its been in, horribly ineptly at worst. Hey, they managed to conquer Kuwait, at least. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/27 "2014-06-11T19:36:16Z")
[Iraq army capitulates to Isis militants in four cities](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/mosul-isis-gunmen-middle-east-states) How can this be happening? They’ve literally taken over a quarter of the country, this seems to be one of the worst US and UK foreign policy disasters in a generation. > [@](#): > > **Dissonance** > Ap Bac wasn’t a terrorist threat, it wasn’t even a guerilla action. It was a conventional fight between the Viet Cong and the ARVN; the VC deliberately chose to stand and fight: The point I was making is that the Vietcong were a terrorist organisation in direct opposition to the Diem government, they showed in that battle that they had more will and conviction to fight the war than the American backed ARVN, the fact they fought a fixed battle is a moot point, they mostly fought irregular combat. > [@](#): > > So if you feel we’re witnessing an Iraqi version of Ap Bac, you’re contradicting yourself. In any event, the main problem with the Iraqi Army in its current incarnation isn’t its youth. That was an excuse when it was first being slapped back together. It stops working as an excuse when it’s had 10 years to get its act together. Let’s just say before 2003, Iraq had been capable somewhat of maintaining its borders and internal security than now, it’s not an excuse when I say Bremer in 2003 disbanded an entire institution, and expected that there wouldn’t be problems further down the road in result of doing that ridiculous decision, so in part, we’re witnessing the result of that policy. > [@](#): > > **Stranger On A Train** > The Ottoman Empire, like the Roman Empire before it, never tried to impose a common cultural or religious identity, and in fact most of its subjects were never in any way participatory citizens with any kind of equivalent or egalitarian representation. No one in Iraq thinks of themselves as being part of the “Ottoman” cultural group or any other common cultural identity. Lumping “Muslims” as if that gives them a shared cultural identity is the blithe ignorance regarding ethnic discord in the region; both the group that maintains primary control over Iraq, and the groups that seek overthrow of that regime identify as being Muslim of some bent, as do the regimes of Iran and Syria which are providing support to insurgents. This is akin to arguing that all Christian denominations, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Anglican are all in common agreement, and therefore the Thirty Year’s War and other disagreements never happened. But I have more in common with Europeans and Americans than Middle Easterners if I generalise, I expect the same can be said of Turks and Arabs in relation to us. However, that’s a wide assumption of what I was stating, like it or not, the Turkish empire did have a huge cultural legacy throughout the Middle East. I’m not merely lumping all Muslims into one pot and I’m aware of the ethnic discord, but that doesn’t discount the fact there is a shared identity between people within the Middle East, and I’ve never said they were part of an ‘Ottoman’ cultural group. If you would like to see more influences the Ottomans had, [I can turn you to this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_Ottoman_Empire); ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/28 "2014-06-11T20:12:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since Turkish wasn’t the language of the Empire, why would they? Even fewer are speaking _Osmanlica_ ;). ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/29 "2014-06-12T00:20:36Z")
I came here to start a thread lamenting the idiocy of the 2003 invasion, along with a little “told you so” from someone who was oppossed in the first place. Seeing this thread, my intended action seems a little superfluous. Is there a reasonable consensus to the question of how much threat ISIS poses outside the immediate area? Are they just looking to impose their rule in the region, or do they have axes to grind, in the manner of supporting terrorism or destabilizing the region? To me, while I agree we have a responsibility due to our culpability, if this doesn’t represent a real threat to us or our allies, we need to stay away. Our track record is not good. My prediction: Syria revisited. Things fall apart, humanitarian crisis, our options are reduced to looking callous while people suffer, or picking winners from a list of groups we’d really rather not help. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/30 "2014-06-12T03:57:24Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > If the entire well-equipped and supported US-led Multi-National Forces couldn’t stop the insurgency, why do you expect that the relatively poorly supported Iraqi security forces (primarily the Army and national police forces) are going to be effective against them, **especially given all of the external support and funding from Iran, Syria** , and independent fundamentalist Islamic sources, and the fact that a diverse collection of otherwise unassociated groups have joined together in opposition of what is largely viewed as a Coalition-installed puppet government? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Lumping “Muslims” as if that gives them a shared cultural identity is the blithe ignorance regarding ethnic discord in the region; both the group that maintains primary control over Iraq, and the groups that seek overthrow of that regime identify as being Muslim of some bent, as do \*\*the regimes of Iran and Syria which are providing support to insurgents. \*\* (Bolding mine) Wait, what? This is a Sunni insurgency made up of the same group that the Syrian regime is fighting _against_ with the help of the Iranian regime, which is Shiite and doesn’t have much cause to oppose the current Iraqi government, which is also majority Shiite. I don’t claim to be any expert, but either I’m really confused about something, or you are. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They have oil. Everybody seems to assume it matters who controls it. Of course, whoever controls it is going to have to pump it and export it, because what else is it good for? I don’t think it’s so much the worry about it getting pumped and sold as it is the worry about who gets the proceeds and what they use that to finance. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/31 "2014-06-12T08:41:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How are they able to do this? Why can’t the Iraqi army stop them? [Iraq Army capitulates](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/mosul-isis-gunmen-middle-east-states) > [@](#): > > Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers – roughly 30,000 men – simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters. There’s nothing to be done except learn the only lesson we can. Mind our own business. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/32 "2014-06-12T09:58:40Z")
I really really really hate to say this. But use of US airpower (NATO airpower is US airpower) might be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/33 "2014-06-12T10:03:52Z")
Air power is a force multiplier - a very effective force multiplier, but a force multiplier nonetheless. You can’t win a war unless you have a force on the ground that’s willing to fight. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/34 "2014-06-12T10:13:32Z")
I am not talking about just bombings. Air assets can include things like helicopter for air assault and drones and survilliance craft. Fact of the matter is that Iraqs history for thousands of years shows that the size of armies is not relevant for the region, you need force multipliers, be they chariots, cavalry, cannon or aircraft. The US deliberately ensured the NIA was not equipped for this mission. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/35 "2014-06-12T10:33:21Z")
And who’s going to ride in those helicopters? Who’s going to use the intelligence provide by those drones? Face it - the Iraqi army doesn’t want to fight. Any number multiplied by zero is still zero. And yeah, the Americans fucked up. They may have given the NIA weapons and taught them to fight, but they didn’t bother to make sure they had anything to fight for. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/36 "2014-06-12T13:19:12Z")
This made-up country cannot even form a government let alone get a quorate Parliament to issue a state of emergency. Seeing what has happened in Libya, an intervention I foolishly supported, I now realise there’s absolutely nothing the West can do in that part of the world but let them have at each other. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/37 "2014-06-12T13:52:54Z")
We broke it, we fix it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/38 "2014-06-12T14:18:17Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > We broke it, we fix it. We already tried that. We couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/39 "2014-06-12T14:28:25Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > We broke it, we fix it. NO! I mean, No thank you. We’d rather you didn’t touch anything else, if you don’t mind. Anything. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/40 "2014-06-12T14:56:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And yeah, the Americans fucked up. They may have given the NIA weapons and taught them to fight, but they didn’t bother to make sure they had anything to fight for. “Make sure?” That was a fool’s errand _ab initio_. IMO the fundamental flaw in the entire neocon nation-building concept has been a modernist, Western idea that simply creating borders and naming a place creates a national identity that somehow, magically, people would want to fight for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=3)