# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/401 "2014-09-07T22:55:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, why not add one more country to the list of countries we’ve bombed. The world is ours to bomb as we please. Well, as of today there are TWO sides in the Syrian civil war that the President has used eliminationist rhetoric against. It’s not presidential to make threats and then not carry them out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/402 "2014-09-07T23:00:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, as of today there are TWO sides in the Syrian civil war that the President has used eliminationist rhetoric against. It’s not presidential to make threats and then not carry them out. Well, let’s see what Obama says on Wed. He’s scheduled to give a speech on his plans for dealing with ISIL. I think he really, really does not want to get involved in Syria, and I don’t blame him. Maybe he can make a deal with Putin where we let him have Ukraine if he steps in and gets rid of ISIL in Syria. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/403 "2014-09-07T23:18:14Z")
It depends on what he thinks the threat is. The mission has to be defined on what the threat is, not on what we’re willing to do about it. If ISIL is like Al Qaeda, then we fight them wherever they are. If they aren’t, then we should just help the Iraqis at about the same rate that we’re doing now. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/404 "2014-09-07T23:33:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And most mental institutions have patients who think they are Jesus or Napoleon. That doesn’t make them Jesus or Napoleon. > > To be a state, you must be recognized as such. How many countries recognize ISIL as a state? A “state” is protected by any number of treaties and conventions, none of which applies to ISIL. Ok, but the guy who thinks he is Napoleon lives in a padded cell. ISIS controls thousands of square miles of territory, an airfield, tanks, artillery, an army, oil wells, central authority and a revenue stream worth billions. They’re closer to Napoleon thinking he is Napoleon. I don’t know if it matters if infidels recognize the Islamic State. If they don’t get destroyed, they’re going to be a state. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/405 "2014-09-08T11:00:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What new information was given? They killed 2 Americans instead of just killing 1 and saying they were going to kill more? Yep, I read that on the news as well. However, eternal optimist that I am, I assume the president and his team of advisors get their intelligence information from sources other than the 24 hour news cycle. Unlike us internet pundits who speculate on to dated, incomplete and often incorrect information while pretending we’ve got our fingers on the pulse. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/406 "2014-09-08T11:13:43Z")
I’m not sure how comforting that is given our intelligence agencies’ history in that region of the world. Their ability to predict things is worse than mine. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/407 "2014-09-08T11:32:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not sure how comforting that is given our intelligence agencies’ history in that region of the world. Their ability to predict things is worse than mine. They are not in the business of prediction. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/408 "2014-09-08T12:09:59Z")
Sometimes they are. Like determining whether ISIS poses a threat to the homeland. Kinda important if we’re to figure out what course of action we need to take. Also wouldn’t hurt to know if they got their hands on any chemical weapons in Syria, but I think we both know our intelligence won’t tell us much useful about that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/409 "2014-09-08T12:24:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Sometimes they are. Like determining whether ISIS poses a threat to the homeland. Kinda important if we’re to figure out what course of action we need to take. That will take time and more intelligence gathering. Demanding to know right this minute and then taking the admnistration to task for not already knowing (of fully disclosing), given the complexities involved, is absurd. > [@adaher](#): > > Also wouldn’t hurt to know if they got their hands on any chemical weapons in Syria, but I think we both know our intelligence won’t tell us much useful about that. How do “we” know that? And what would “we” do with that information, for example? I’m not advocating that the gov’t hide all vital information. On the other hand, actionable information that is part of an ongoing military mission is generally classified. If for no other reason than preventing the enemy from knowing what we know before we get a chance to do something about it. For example, nobody published OSM’s address before the SEALS paid him a surprise visit, right? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/410 "2014-09-08T13:27:25Z")
[Thomas Friedman’s comment today about ISIS](http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/09/08/thomas-l-friedman-why-the-u-s-cant-intervene-to-destroy-isis-yet/) seems intelligent. Friedman would be considered hawkish, I think, but endorses Obama’s waiting to develop a strategy: > [@](#): > > I’m all-in on destroying ISIS. It is a sick, destabilizing movement. I support using U.S. air power and special forces to root it out, but only as part of a coalition, where everybody who has a stake in stability there pays their share and where mainstream Sunnis and Shiites take the lead by demonstrating that they hate ISIS more than they hate each other. Otherwise, we’ll end up in the middle of a God-awful mess of duplicitous allies and sectarian passions, and nothing good we do will last. Certainly a refreshing change from FoxNews and GOP rants which often seem to treat this horrid crisis as just another excuse to dump on our President. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/411 "2014-09-08T13:48:00Z")
[Obama will announce a new “game plan” on ISIS this week.](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/obama-isis-iraq-syria-arab-league-coalition-extremists) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/412 "2014-09-08T16:57:02Z")
What, no ill informed but strongly opined speculation on how Obama’s gonna roll with his new “game plan”? Not even criticism that it’s likely to be different than what he said two weeks before? This is going to be a boring thread for the next couple of days. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/413 "2014-09-08T17:13:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That will take time and more intelligence gathering. Demanding to know right this minute and then taking the admnistration to task for not already knowing (of fully disclosing), given the complexities involved, is absurd. I’m not taking them to task. This has been a problem forever. My point is simply that our intelligence agencies’ track record on the Mideast is probably worse than CNN’s. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/414 "2014-09-08T17:46:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not taking them to task. This has been a problem forever. My point is simply that our intelligence agencies’ track record on the Mideast is probably worse than CNN’s. I know this is a clever sound bite for a FOX News audience and Denis Miller would get a room full of guffaws with that punch line, but it’s undermined by the simple fact that the same intelligence you criticize is able to routinely identify, track and eliminate key leadership of enemy combatants by various advanced surveillance means without getting a single US soldier killed. I’m impressed by that. Even if you’re not. Maybe I’m just easily impressed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/415 "2014-09-08T20:33:05Z")
No, you’re right, that has been a major accomplishment post-9/11. What is still missing though is information about their intentions. The intelligence community completely missed the invasion of Iraq and I’m sure the President didn’t judge them “junior varsity” all by himself. Do we have any idea if they intend to attack the West? The Brits seem pretty positive that they will. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/416 "2014-09-08T20:34:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do we have any idea if they intend to attack the West? The Brits seem pretty positive that they will. Cite? Specifically, is it British intelligence who says that, or British pols, or the British press, or who? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/417 "2014-09-08T20:41:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > …The intelligence community completely missed the invasion of Iraq… What does that even mean? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/418 "2014-09-08T20:44:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do we have any idea if they intend to attack the West? The Brits seem pretty positive that they will. Do you mean “do we have any idea if the intend to attack the West other than the videotaped threats to the United States and declarations by senior ISIS officials that they intend to do so”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/419 "2014-09-08T20:45:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What does that even mean? there was no warning that we know of about ISIS’s intention to move into IRaq in force. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/420 "2014-09-08T20:46:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you mean “do we have any idea if the intend to attack the West other than the videotaped threats to the United States and declarations by senior ISIS officials that they intend to do so”? Well, I agree with you if you mean that they are going to attack the US. Which means we have to fight them wherever they are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=22)