# ISIS in the Middle East is growing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473 "2014-06-10T14:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/121 "2014-06-20T04:21:42Z")
I’ve got some lozenges, if our throat-clearing moderator would like one. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/122 "2014-06-20T04:35:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That wasn’t the only post I made in that thread. You did not offer a third choice here either: > [@Why the US left Iraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-left-iraq/690750/40): > > Now, I expect Obama knew as well as most of us did that Iraq was not “stable”. Politically, he had to say they were. You actually reduced it to one choice. Here Obama wasn’t clueless to the reality of instabiliity. He had to know the truth but lied for political reasons. What you are forgetting is that a soverign Iraq did not want US troops there beyond 2011. The exit date was negotiated by Bush not him. Obama had no political motivation to lie about Iraq’s stability at that point in time. He said they had challenges ahead and no one should dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/123 "2014-06-20T04:59:37Z")
I’m not forgetting anything. Please don’t ascribe beliefs to me that I have not posted. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/124 "2014-06-20T08:02:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not forgetting anything. Please don’t ascribe beliefs to me that I have not posted. I did not ascribe a belief to you. I am saying that your argument that Obama had to lie for political reasons lacks a foundation in fact because a soverign Iraq did not want US troops there beyond 2011. The military option to keep combat troops on the ground inside of Iraq starting in 2012 was not an option Obama could take. There is no reason to lie about Iraq’s stability. And firthermore, the exit date was negotiated by Bush not him. Obama had no political motivation to lie about Iraq’s stability at that point in time. He said they had challenges ahead and no one should dispute that. There was no politically motivated lie because there was no political gain for saying Iraq was stable with challenges ahead as Obama said to the troops on December 14, 2011. I’ll point out also that Obama was not withdrawing all troops because he thought stability in Iraq had been achieved and was guaranteed for the ages. He withdrew them at a soveriegn nations’ request and their refusal to grant immunity to the troops that would remain. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/125 "2014-06-20T12:58:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I did not ascribe a belief to you. I am saying that your argument that Obama had to lie for political reasons lacks a foundation in fact because a soverign Iraq did not want US troops there beyond 2011. The military option to keep combat troops on the ground inside of Iraq starting in 2012 was not an option Obama could take. There is no reason to lie about Iraq’s stability. Of course there was. Obama tried, and failed, to maintain more troops in Iraq after the withdrawal date. If he didn’t think we needed them there, why did he try and persuade the Iraqi government to allow them to stay? His motivation for the political lie was that _he had failed to negotiate what he wanted_, and so he had to then pivot (as the saying goes these days) to a different position. The same thing is going on in Afghanistan right now, only he’s likely to be more successful there in maintaining the troops he wants. Now, if you want to insist that Obama did not lie (for political reasons or other), then we have to conclude that he did a poor job of evaluating what the situation was. The facts are what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/126 "2014-06-20T13:10:04Z")
We need a version of Star Treks ‘Prime Directive’ before we ever involve ourselves in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Cmoore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Cmoore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmoore)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/127 "2014-06-20T13:35:33Z")
Not much mention of the fact that US-UK-France-Saudis have been funding and arming ISIS for the last 3 years in Syria. Are all of ISIS terrorists now or is it simply a matter of their geographic location? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/128 "2014-06-20T14:12:40Z")
> [@Cmoore](#): > > Not much mention of the fact that US-UK-France-Saudis have been funding and arming ISIS for the last 3 years in Syria. Huh? Saudis, maybe, but not us. > [@](#): > > Are all of ISIS terrorists now or is it simply a matter of their geographic location? I’m not even sure what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/129 "2014-06-20T14:32:12Z")
Just to play devils advocate, what’s so bad about them having a Caliphate in the Middle East? The Arabs had one before, and we dealt with that, what’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/130 "2014-06-20T14:49:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just to play devils advocate, what’s so bad about them having a Caliphate in the Middle East? The Arabs had one before, and we dealt with that, what’s the big deal? They would want to include Spain, I should imagine. When the Moors and Jews were run out of Spain in 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella were confident enough to finance Columbus voyage, whatever his real name was. Speaking of Jews, life would not be easy with a Caliphate letting their kids play on their lawn for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/131 "2014-06-20T14:56:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They would want to include Spain, I should imagine. When the Moors and Jews were run out of Spain in 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella were confident enough to finance Columbus voyage, whatever his real name was. > > Speaking of Jews, life would not be easy with a Caliphate letting their kids play on their lawn for Israel. So let’s say it’s just restricted to North Africa and where they are now, what would be so different? They’d all still hate Israel, that’s a given, but the present states do now anyway, what difference would it make. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/132 "2014-06-20T14:58:09Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just to play devils advocate, what’s so bad about them having a Caliphate in the Middle East? The Arabs had one before, and we dealt with that, what’s the big deal? A united Dar al-Islam would be a new global superpower, probably with nukes eventually, and if it were united under fanatics like ISIS it might act fanatically. Of course, a Caliphate to which both Sunni and Shi’a Muslims would be loyal is probably out of the question, that would be like having a Pope of All Catholics and Protestants. But just a united **Arabia** would be a threat to the world if united under fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/133 "2014-06-20T15:06:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A united Dar al-Islam would be a new global superpower, probably with nukes eventually, and if it were united under fanatics like ISIS it might act fanatically. > > Of course, a Caliphate to which both Sunni and Shi’a Muslims would be loyal is probably out of the question, that would be like having a Pope of All Catholics and Protestants. But just a united **Arabia** would be a threat to the world if united under fanatics. I should of been more descriptive and said it would be a Sunni Arab Caliphate. There would be no guarantee it’d be a superpower, or even have nuclear weapons. Arabia is already under the influence of Wahhabism, which is partly what these guys are influenced by. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/134 "2014-06-20T16:07:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A united Dar al-Islam would be a new global superpower, probably with nukes eventually, and if it were united under fanatics like ISIS it might act fanatically. > > Of course, a Caliphate to which both Sunni and Shi’a Muslims would be loyal is probably out of the question, that would be like having a Pope of All Catholics and Protestants. But just a united **Arabia** would be a threat to the world if united under fanatics. You need certain things to be a superpower. An industrial base, for instance. A substantial educated class. Stuff like that. Oil and numbers aren’t enough. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be a regional power, of course, but nothing beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/135 "2014-06-20T16:54:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You need certain things to be a superpower. An industrial base, for instance. A substantial educated class. Stuff like that. Oil and numbers aren’t enough. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be a regional power, of course, but nothing beyond that. What **Alessan** said. An Arabia united under fanatics would be a minor threat to Jordan or Iraq and a terrorist threat generally. That’s about it. And the numbers aren’t all that scary either - we’re talking about maybe 80 million people tops. There are more Muslims in Bangladesh. Never mind that it would have its own numerous internal problems to sort through ( Imami Shi’a concentrated in al-Ahsa and Bahrain, Zaydi Shi’a in northern Yemen, Ibadis in Oman, etc. ). ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/136 "2014-06-20T16:59:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > An Arabia united under fanatics would be a minor threat … Said the Byzantine to the Persian. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/137 "2014-06-20T17:03:45Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Said the Byzantine to the Persian. Context, context… 😃 To put it another way, a whackadoo Caliphal Arabia would be roughly about as scary and dangerous as Khomeini’s Iran ( and Iran currently has a population almost as large as the entire Arabian peninsula ). Something to pay attention to, but hardly the thing of international night terrors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/138 "2014-06-20T17:27:20Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > What **Alessan** said. An Arabia united under fanatics would be a minor threat to Jordan or Iraq . . . What threat, it would **include** them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/139 "2014-06-20T17:53:21Z")
Neither Jordan nor Iraq are on the Arabian penninsula. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473/140 "2014-06-20T18:00:03Z")
I admit, a united Greater Arabia and Levant - including Syria, Iraq and Jordan - would be a major threat to Israel; I’d say about equal to the threat my country faced until peace with Egypt. It would not, however, pose a major threat to the United States. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-in-the-middle-east-is-growing/690473.md?page=8)