# ISIS needs to be destroyed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801 "2015-02-16T09:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/221 "2015-03-11T19:12:01Z")
**XT** : I’m pretty sure we agree that members of ISIS may commit acts of violence in Italy, but that they are unlikely to gain or hold territory there. Where we disagree is simply over whether the CNN headline was designed to imply the latter, thereby inflating the real threat from ISIS. Since divining the possible meanings of a CNN headline seems barely worth one post, much less five, I think I’ll just leave it here. Where we probably disagree over something more substantive is the degree to which we, USAmericans and Europeans, should be concerned about attacks from ISIS. I am in the camp that thinks that since I am ten times more likely to slip and die in my bathtub as to be killed in a terrorist incident, and indeed as likely to be killed by non-Islamic terrorists as Islamic ones, the best thing we could do would be to address ISIS as the regional problem that it is, instead of inflating it into the big bad spooky that certain interests (not least of all ISIS) want it to be. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/222 "2015-03-11T19:19:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **XT** : I’m pretty sure we agree that members of ISIS may commit acts of violence in Italy, but that they are unlikely to gain or hold territory there. Where we disagree is simply over whether the CNN headline was designed to imply the latter, thereby inflating the real threat from ISIS. Since divining the possible meanings of a CNN headline seems barely worth one post, much less five, I think I’ll just leave it here. > > Where we probably disagree over something more substantive is the degree to which we, USAmericans and Europeans, should be concerned about attacks from ISIS. I am in the camp that thinks that since I am ten times more likely to slip and die in my bathtub as to be killed in a terrorist incident, and indeed as likely to be killed by non-Islamic terrorists as Islamic ones, the best thing we could do would be to address ISIS as the regional problem that it is, instead of inflating it into the big bad spooky that certain interests (not least of all ISIS) want it to be. Sure, and don’t get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from on this stuff and why you don’t perhaps think it’s as big a deal as I do wrt threat. I think it’s an area where there is room for disagreement yet dialogue on both sides. I’m not advocating we send in the ground troops and fight them in the streets and on the beaches, we shall nevah surrendah…er, sorry was channeling old Winny there. In any case, I think that our current level of involvement is consummate with the situation and I’m good with it and with the current level of European participation as well. This is a fight that the locals need a stake in and have to do for themselves, by and large, and I think they are doing that with our collective help (including Iranian ‘advisers’ which is ok by me, though I don’t know if everyone realizes the medium and possible long term ramifications of that or the ramifications of the Shi’ia militias doing what they are doing). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/223 "2015-03-11T21:04:33Z")
I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate, then knock down my stickman. (Stickmen are stronger than strawmen, though neither have been advocated by anyone as yet.) Stalin was worse than ISIS. North Korea is worse than ISIS (though Saudi Arabia and esophagus cancer are better!) We are managing North Korea. Why couldn’t we make peace with ISIS? Well we could, but it makes little sense. Firstly ISIS is in an expansionary phase unlike NK. Secondly, _ISIS is weak_ as nation states go. They get an A for insurgency against weak armies, but a D+ for nation building (better than Somalia!) If they captured parts of Syria and Iraq and held on to them, well we could manage that, though frankly we might not want to given their weaknesses. Better to side with Iran/Iraq. But ISIS has a policy of perpetual expansion. So it’s a deal with them now or deal with them later situation. So we address them while they’re weaker. Not because they currently pose an existential risk. But because we can pursue our national interests best in that manner. ## The nice thing is that we don’t have to second guess DAESH’s intent, like we did with the Soviets. Their broad agenda is pretty transparent. I keep wondering about what our board’s veterans think about a military that will send thousands of trainers and special ops folk in harm’s way for 2nd order US interests, so that 1st order US interests never arise. But then again during WWII, I’m guessing most deaths didn’t involve especially cinematic heroism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/224 "2015-03-11T22:48:36Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate, then knock down my stickman. (Stickmen are stronger than strawmen, though neither have been advocated by anyone as yet.) > > Stalin was worse than ISIS. North Korea is worse than ISIS (though Saudi Arabia and esophagus cancer are better!) We are managing North Korea. Why couldn’t we make peace with ISIS? > > Well we could, but it makes little sense. Firstly ISIS is in an expansionary phase unlike NK. Secondly, _ISIS is weak_ as nation states go. They get an A for insurgency against weak armies, but a D+ for nation building (better than Somalia!) If they captured parts of Syria and Iraq and held on to them, well we could manage that, though frankly we might not want to given their weaknesses. Better to side with Iran/Iraq. But ISIS has a policy of perpetual expansion. So it’s a deal with them now or deal with them later situation. So we address them while they’re weaker. Not because they currently pose an existential risk. But because we can pursue our national interests best in that manner. > > ## The nice thing is that we don’t have to second guess DAESH’s intent, like we did with the Soviets. Their broad agenda is pretty transparent. > > I keep wondering about what our board’s veterans think about a military that will send thousands of trainers and special ops folk in harm’s way for 2nd order US interests, so that 1st order US interests never arise. But then again during WWII, I’m guessing most deaths didn’t involve especially cinematic heroism. No one is suggesting peace with ISIS. The question is 1) whether there is any great hurry to get rid of it, since it does **not** appear to be growing any bigger or stronger, and does not appear likely to, and will almost certainly collapse eventually if effectively contained and degraded; and 2) whether American ground troops are necessary to get rid of it, when several local forces appear eager to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/225 "2015-03-11T23:00:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No one is suggesting peace with ISIS. The question is 1) whether there is any great hurry to get rid of it, since it does **not** appear to be growing any bigger or stronger, and does not appear likely to, and will almost certainly collapse eventually if effectively contained and degraded; and 2) whether American ground troops are necessary to get rid of it, when several local forces appear eager to do the job. Well, it’s not growing much bigger or stronger because, you know, it’s being fought…hard. Their logistics are under assault from allied air. On the ground the Kurd’s, the Iraqi military (and in Syria Assad and his merry men), Sunni and Shi’a tribesmen and militia and Iranian ‘advisers’ are battling them tooth and nail (when not stabbing each other in the back of course :p). So, yeah, they aren’t really growing a lot bigger or stronger right now (though there is Libya…), but there are reasons for that…reasons that could change if we decided we weren’t going to help out anymore. I don’t think that American (or European) ground forces are necessary to combat ISIS/ISIL…but I think they need to be combated and destroyed, which was the original subject of this OP. They are vile and they do truly heinous things. Hell, those assholes in Boko Haram have signed up, which should be enough evidence that they need to be destroyed root and branch…I mean, when you get these guys on your side it kind of is a good indication of where your organization is on the evil/good continuum. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/226 "2015-03-11T23:20:57Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I keep wondering about what our board’s veterans think about a military that will send thousands of trainers and special ops folk in harm’s way for 2nd order US interests, so that 1st order US interests never arise. From a book about a different kind of fight in Korea, This Kind of War, by T R Fehrenbach: > [@](#): > > you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life—but if you desire to defend it, protect it and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men in the mud. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/227 "2015-03-12T00:13:50Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > From a book about a different kind of fight in Korea, This Kind of War, by T R Fehrenbach: > > > [@](#): > > > > you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life—but if you desire to defend it, protect it and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men in the mud. Well, there you go: I have no desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization. I’ve got plenty of civilization _right here_; bombing and pulverizing and wiping clean and so on _over there_ means we can declare victory without putting our young men in that mud. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/228 "2015-03-12T01:21:24Z")
Now, Universe, I know I haven’t been a very good pantheist. But I know that You sometimes like to stack reality so it plays like a bad Hollywood movie. So, I’m thinking how about a bunch of Iranians save a band of our brave American heroes from ISIS? That would be cool. K tx bye. Your pal, e. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/229 "2015-03-12T01:45:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now, Universe, I know I haven’t been a very good pantheist. But I know that You sometimes like to stack reality so it plays like a bad Hollywood movie. So, I’m thinking how about a bunch of Iranians save a band of our brave American heroes from ISIS? That would be cool. K tx bye. > > Your pal, e. Damn…and here I always ask the Universe for hookers and blow. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/230 "2015-03-12T03:20:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Damn…and here I always ask the Universe for hookers and blow. :eek: And, lo! The Universe hath provided them! 🙂 (Getting close enough to use them is left as a spiritual exercise for the worshipper.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/231 "2015-03-12T05:49:01Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > From a book about a different kind of fight in Korea, This Kind of War, by T R Fehrenbach: [INDENT]you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life—but if you desire to defend it, protect it and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men in the mud. [/INDENT] That’s typically the way the issue is framed. But I’m saying that’s papering over the reality. The reality is more like, “We have to manage an international system. But frankly there are few existential threats. We like it that way. We want to keep it that way. _And we want to invest at least a couple of hundred American lives per decade_ so that we _don’t_ have to face existential threats decades down the road.” Usually war advocates try to argue that soldiers in Vietnam, Korea or Iraq were protecting the homeland in some way. But they weren’t or to the extent they were the link was pretty tenuous. My take is that such security challenges are worth dozens or low hundreds of American lives, but not thousands. I can only think that some military men find such calculations and characterizations offensive. I don’t exactly blame them. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/232 "2015-03-12T08:25:49Z")
[Apropos.](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/isis-flag-actually-just-jacket-stuck-in-tree.html) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/233 "2015-03-12T08:50:55Z")
On a serious note, here’s [an interesting article](http://www.niqash.org/articles/?id=3614), from back in January, comparing the Shia militias with the Iraqi army: > [@](#): > > Colonel Jassim al-Mamouri says that the soldiers under his command in the province of Diyala are complaining about their jobs […]. Many of them would rather join the militias, he notes. > > The militia’s system of leave is one of the attractions. For every ten days the militia members work, they get ten days of leave. For army soldiers, they work 20 days and then only get seven days of leave. > > Militia members also have more sophisticated weapons [including Iranian-made 106 mm anti-tank guns as well as 120mm, 82mm and 60mm mortars] and they get an unlimited amount of ammunition. His soldiers are only given 120 bullets and it’s hard for them to get more, al-Mamouri says. > > However possibly the most important difference between the militias and the regular army is this: if a militia member withdraws from battle or makes a mistake, he will not be punished or subject to military discipline. Soldiers may lose their rank, have their salaries cut or suspended or be otherwise punished if they do something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/234 "2015-03-13T19:28:03Z")
[Iraqi forces have almost but still not quite taken all of Tikrit.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-mideast-iraq-idUSKBN0M91DR20150313) I guess, as the Germans learned in Stalingrad, it is very difficult to take a city if the defenders are willing to make a house-to-house ratfight of it. Which means Mosul will be an even tougher nut to crack. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/235 "2015-03-13T20:48:10Z")
Here’s a bad move: [Boko Haram accepts a pledge to join ISIS.](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03/13/isis-accepts-boko-haram-allegiance-pledge/?cmpid=cmty_twitter_fn) It’s the beginning of the end. They’ll end up shooting each other. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/236 "2015-03-13T22:21:35Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Here’s a bad move: [Boko Haram accepts a pledge to join ISIS.](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03/13/isis-accepts-boko-haram-allegiance-pledge/?cmpid=cmty_twitter_fn) > > It’s the beginning of the end. They’ll end up shooting each other. I doubt they’ll ever get within range of each other. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/237 "2015-03-14T07:56:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I doubt they’ll ever get within range of each other. I don’t know, if a few dozen Boko Haram fighters with their bamboo sticks met ISIS in Libya, they could load a few pontoons, cross the Med, and conquer Italy. Then the rest of Europe would follow. Asia’s pretty much already on board. Then, with Europe’s resources, they can motorize their pontoons and cross the Atlantic and Pacific for a dual assault on the coasts of North America. Or Greta Van Susteren would tell you if allowed by the Fox Censors. She stops just short. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/238 "2015-03-15T00:03:25Z")
[The Kurds accuse ISIS of using chemical weapons.](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/3/14/iraqi-kurds-say-isil-deployed-chemical-weapons-against-them.html) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/239 "2015-03-15T07:48:01Z")
[CIA funds Al Qaeda](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html). Sort of by accident. Bin Laden figures the cash must be laced with polonium or something. No: we’re actually that incompetent. Story of 2010 snafu. [C.I.A. Cash Ended Up in Coffers of Al Qaeda - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html) This past week ISIS attacks Ramadi, which is just west of Bagdhad. [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-14/islamic-state-increases-attacks-in-ramadi-official-says](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-14/islamic-state-increases-attacks-in-ramadi-official-says) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/240 "2015-03-15T08:51:07Z")
Unsurprisingly, the anti-ISIS offensive is already all over YouTube and the interwebz at large. Some clips (I won’t link to them) show atrocities: A supposed ISIS child soldier being beaten and shot. Two bloodied men in civilian clothing denying any connection to ISIS, and yet shot anyway. A village being burnt to the ground. On the other hand, [this clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMGrouEwchg#t=15) simply shows trash-talk between a Shia militiaman and an ISIS fighter over a captured walkie talkie. The Shia fellow laughs and jeers; the ISIS guy breaks into tears. [This clip is interesting.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1x5eR0CXLg) A local Sunni child shows up at a Shia militia outpost, and says that his grandfather has told him to “go beg the dogs [Shia militiamen] for food.” There’s some banter back and forth, but they end up giving the kid some food and ask him to “tell your grandpa this offering comes from our faith and our humanity.” The thing is, while sectarian hatred runs deep, and many Shia want revenge for the [Camp Speicher massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Speicher_massacre) and other ISIS atrocities, [Grand Ayatollah Sistani has insisted that the anti-ISIS fighters go easy on the civilians, and follow the rules of war](http://www.sistani.org/english/archive/25036/): > [@](#): > > ‘Do not indulge in acts of extremism, do not disrespect dead corpses, do not resort to deceit, do not kill an elder, do not kill a child, do not kill a woman, and do not [even] cut down trees unless necessity dictates otherwise.’ > > […] > > By the majesty of God! By the majesty of God! Souls are sacred! Never should you do to them that which God has not deemed permissible. What great travesty it is to kill innocent souls, and what great honour it is to safeguard innocent souls, just as God, exalted is He, mentioned in His book [i.e. the Qurʾan]. The killing of an innocent soul has dangerous consequences, both in this world and in the hereafter. > > […] > > Never inflict harm on non-Muslims, regardless of their religion and sect. The non-Muslims [who live in predominately Muslim lands] are under the protection of the Muslims in those lands. Whosoever attacks non-Muslims is a betrayer and traitor. And rest assured that such an act of betrayal and treachery is one of the most repugnant acts in accordance to innate nature and the religion of God. > > […] > > By the majesty of God! By the majesty of God! The lives of those who do not fight you are sacred, especially the weak among the elderly, the children, and the women, even if they were the families of those who fight you. He also went out of his way to remind the fighters that Sunnis, too, are fellow Muslims: > [@](#): > > By the majesty of God! By the majesty of God! It is [abhorrent] to cast suspicion over the integrity of people’s faith in order to target them and legitimize the taking away of that which is sacred [i.e. their life]. Alike the way of the Kharijites of the early Islamic period and their contemporary followers who are ignorant of the basic tenets of religion, following their own personal moods and whims and have sought to justify their [un-Islamic] actions by recourse to some textual evidence which they never understood. The Muslims of today have to live with the consequences of these misinterpretations. > > Know that whosoever bears testimony that there is only one God and that Muhammad is His messenger is indeed a Muslim. That person’s life and property must be safeguarded. If that person falls into the trap of [theological] deviance and religious innovations, then know that not every misguidance leads to infidelity, nor does every innovation strip one of Islam as his faith. If, against all odds, Sistani somehow manages to get his way, I’d say he fully deserves [that Nobel Peace Prize that Tom Friedman called for back in 2005](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/opinion/20friedman.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=13)