# ISIS needs to be destroyed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801 "2015-02-16T09:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/241 "2015-03-15T11:18:23Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [CIA funds Al Qaeda](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html). Sort of by accident. Bin Laden figures the cash must be laced with polonium or something. No: we’re actually that incompetent. Story of 2010 snafu. [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html) I have read this and I do not understand what the expectations are from Americans… So you were providing the cash funding to the afghans - which of course can not be subject to american bureaucracy type controls, this is not incompetence it is a risk taking it seems to me… And so the Afghans by ricochet used some of this cash - cash is fungible - along with others to pay a ransom… for a senior official… An action that basically only the Americans and the British maybe find so strange or wrong, but even other Western powers engage in regularly… When I read this article I can only see a reminder of why american efforts do not seem to be very successful outside of the western world. It seems to me americans, even though you have a great reputation for pragmatism are extremely puritan in the application of their mores and expect it to apply everywhere they go. This is a contrast to the French who are not so pragmatic in their ordinary business, but are not the puritans in these situations. This would only seem to be incompetence to me if the CIA was surprised in private and in the reality that some cash has leaked. I doubt this is true, it is Afghanistan… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/243 "2015-03-15T22:43:15Z")
It is in the interest of the US not to fund the enemy. If our allies are funding the enemy, that’s a problem. Personally, I wouldn’t call it a scandal, though I suspect most of the media would characterize it that way. Just a breakdown of controls. You are correct though that only 1/5th of the ransom came from the US, and that was coming out of US cash squirreled away by the Afghans. More generally, it shows one of the problems with slush funds, though admittedly buying of warlords can serve US and Afghan interests. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/244 "2015-03-15T23:07:43Z")
[The Iraqis besieging Tikrit want U.S. air support.](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/iraqi-official-coalition-airstrikes-needed-tikrit-150315124453644.html) So far they’re not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/245 "2015-03-15T23:18:11Z")
[The Syrian Kurdish militia also wants U.S. support in their fight against ISIS.](http://rudaw.net/english/interview/03072014) But they’re not getting it, apparently because this [YPD militia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Protection_Units) is an arm of the Syrian Kurdish [Democratic Union Party,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Union_Party_(Syria)) which is affiliated with the Turkish Kurdish [Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party), which the U.S. still has listed as a “terrorist organization” (I presume, both because it is Marxist, and because it is Kurdish-secessionist and the Turks are our needed allies; and, perhaps, also because it has a record of using terrorism, thought that’s probably not a very important factor). I guess it’s not always as simple as “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/246 "2015-03-15T23:30:12Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It is in the interest of the US not to fund the enemy. If our allies are funding the enemy, that’s a problem. I am guessing that you must be unhappy about the french and the germans, and the many other eu countries that have paid ransoms… Many interests exist, maybe it is more in your interest to have the afghan allies than to impose american moralism? > [@](#): > > Just a breakdown of controls. What controls does americans pretend to have over the afghan presidential palace? Maybe it is just understanding that purism does not solve all things. > [@](#): > > More generally, it shows one of the problems with slush funds, though admittedly buying of warlords can serve US and Afghan interests. Et voila, one interest against another interest. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (I presume, both because it is Marxist, and because it is Kurdish-secessionist and the Turks are our needed allies; and, perhaps, also because it has a record of using terrorism, thought that’s probably not a very important factor). Your lens of understanding the world always enterains me. Actual real terror activity in a nato ally you think is less important than some pretend marxism? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/247 "2015-03-15T23:55:49Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I am guessing that you must be unhappy about the french and the germans, and the many other eu countries that have paid ransoms… > > Many interests exist, maybe it is more in your interest to have the afghan allies than to impose american moralism? I don’t see it as moralism actually. I see it as something akin to good government. Furthermore, I believe (with some middling evidence) that clean government and rule of law advance economic growth. And yes, paying ransoms only encourages further hostage taking. For the US government to do such a thing would be ill-advised. [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/08/21/the-logic-of-not-paying-ransoms/). That’s not quite what we did here though. You are correct about tradeoffs though. I will maintain that the relationship we had with our Afghan proxies wasn’t the greatest, though our Pakistani relations during the 2000s were more ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/248 "2015-03-16T00:16:30Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I don’t see it as moralism actually. Ah no? But: > [@](#): > > I see it as something akin to good government. No difference > [@](#): > > Furthermore, I believe (with some middling evidence) that clean government and rule of law advance economic growth. Excellent, who can disagree. but you are not the government of the Afghanistan, you are fighting a war. One does not have good government in the war zones or the economic growth. This is naive moralism misplaced. I think this is why these wars again and again go badly for you americans. You can not let go of your puritanism. That may be good for the economic growth. it is not so successful for a place like the Iraq or the Afghanistan which does not forgive. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/249 "2015-03-16T00:42:36Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Your lens of understanding the world always enterains me. Actual real terror activity in a nato ally you think is less important than some pretend marxism? It’s just that the USG has a history of assigning the “terrorist” and “freedom fighter” labels for geopolitical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/250 "2015-03-16T01:31:11Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Excellent, who can disagree. but you are not the government of the Afghanistan, you are fighting a war. One does not have good government in the war zones or the economic growth. This is naive moralism misplaced. The shtick about economic growth was a tangent. Showing a link between good governance and economic growth was a contrast to moralism, which implies something like prohibition and the like. > [@](#): > > I think this is why these wars again and again go badly for you americans. You can not let go of your puritanism. That may be good for the economic growth. it is not so successful for a place like the Iraq or the Afghanistan which does not forgive. So we’re not tough enough, is that it? We should just nuke 'em until they glow? It sounds like you’re basically giving a carte blanche for human rights abuses - but maybe I’m over-generalizing. This incident certainly doesn’t fall in that category. ETA: In case it’s not clear, I’m backpeddling on the CIA/Bin Laden story, not that my outrage was exactly 11 in my original presentation. I’ll stick with my anti-ransom position though: France gets its citizens kidnapped more than the US does for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2015, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/251 "2015-03-16T07:16:40Z")
NPR had a segment on Tikrit. The Iraqi Army contribution has been token, about 3000 troops. Militias backed by Iran run the show - this is an untrained and irregular set of 3-4 forces amounting to 20,000 troops. This bodes ill for Mosul. That city of 1 million has a number of Saddam’s generals, who may not accept an attack dominated by Shiite militias. Getting Sunnis to stand down is a big part of the challenge. The Tikrit attack revealed that the Iraqi Army isn’t much. > **[In Iraq, The Final Battle For Tikrit Is Likely To Be The Hardest](https://www.npr.org/2015/03/15/393133278/in-iraq-the-final-battle-for-tikrit-is-likely-to-be-the-hardest)** > > The offensive against ISIS in Tikrit is being eyed by Iraq's various factions — including some the U.S. hopes will help take on ISIS elsewhere. NPR's Rachel Martin talks with Deborah Amos in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/252 "2015-03-16T07:41:23Z")
Of course, Saddam’s former generals wouldn’t like being defeated by _any_ Shi’ites, whether from the army or from the militias. But you can’t always get want you want. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/253 "2015-03-17T08:58:49Z")
Series of interesting pictures [here](http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/03/the-battle-for-tikrit/387886/), including one of Saddam Hussein’s razed tomb, a Shia militiaman with the word “Daesh” (i.e. ISIS) written on his boots, and a batshit crazy-looking _Mad Max_-style armoured vehicle in picture #2 (serious what the hell is that thing?). In other news, the _Wall Street Journal_ ([behind paywall](http://www.wsj.com/articles/for-now-sectarian-calm-in-liberated-iraq-town-1426290210)) reports that, much like Sistani, the Iranians, too, want the Shia militias to go easy on the conquered Sunnis. On his blog, Prof. Juan Cole summarises the WSJ article like so: > [@](#): > > Iranian commander Qasim Solaimani, who is coordinating the Tikrit campaign, has been trying to moderate their [the Shia militias’] behavior toward local Sunnis because he wants to improve Iran’s relations with Iraq’s north and west in the aftermath of the Daesh fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/254 "2015-03-17T20:56:37Z")
Maybe the armoured camper van in photo #2 has a spaced-armour outer shell to detonate RPGs before they hit the real armour? ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/255 "2015-03-17T21:08:43Z")
And a little hunting around leads me to think that it’s a [Panhard VCR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_VCR#/media/File:PanhardVCRTT.JPG)underneath the landship exterior. Note the linked photo is of an Iraqi army vehicle as well. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/256 "2015-03-17T22:21:31Z")
Nice sleuthing, **lisiate**! In the realm of “wait what _really_?”, Iraqi, Iranian and Kurdish media are all reporting that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, ISIS’s self-declared caliph, has had a dream in which he met the Prophet Muhammed… Who ordered him to get the fuck out of Mosul. I’m… I’m going to wait for confirmation on that one. Meanwhile, [Niqash.org](http://Niqash.org) mentions an Iraqi “political analyst” who believes that [the American have begun trying to tear the Iraqi-Iranian collaboration apart](http://www.niqash.org/articles/?id=3616): > [@](#): > > The US’ disquiet about the visibility and presence of the Iranian military was made clear during a flying visit to Baghdad by top US commander, General Martin Dempsey, on Monday. > > “I come away a bit concerned that it’s going to be difficult to sustain the coalition for the rest of the challenge - which is trans-regional - unless the government of Iraq can actually form that national unity platform to which they committed,” Dempsey said afterwards. > > Local political analyst, Zaid Ahmad, believes this was a not-so-veiled message to the Iraqi government. > > “Dempsey came to Baghdad with a message: And that was **the threat of a withdrawal of support from Iraq because of Iran’s growing influence** [my bolding] in Iraq, due to the Shiite militias,” Ahmad told NIQASH. “Dempsey’s statements while in Baghdad and after his departure are clear indications of this.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/257 "2015-03-26T15:18:49Z")
After three weeks of fighting, Tikrit still has not fallen. [Now, finally, the U.S. is providing airstrikes.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/middleeast/iraq-islamic-state-tikrit-united-states-airstrikes.html?_r=0) Hope there’s something left of the city when all this is over. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/258 "2015-03-26T15:24:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > After three weeks of fighting, Tikrit still has not fallen. [Now, finally, the U.S. is providing airstrikes.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/middleeast/iraq-islamic-state-tikrit-united-states-airstrikes.html?_r=0) > > Hope there’s something left of the city when all this is over. We basically let the Iranians take the lead and the offensive stalled, so we came in to help (and also take the initiative in the propaganda wars between the US and Iran in the thoughts of the folks in the region). Pretty much a good move on the part of the Administration, IMHO. As to the last, well, you guys wanted to know how things could be worse than when the US was actively fighting with ground troops in the region in some of these same cities, so here it is. The death toll from this fight with ISIS using Shiite militia ground troops in Sunni areas coordinated by Iran are going to be horrific, and the shock waves from this are going to be felt for years with even more animosity between Iraq Shiite and Sunni tribesmen along with foreign fighters from ISIS. I can’t imagine how this could be uglier. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/259 "2015-03-26T16:45:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I can’t imagine how this could be uglier. What a limited imagination! It gets uglier if the Iranians commit ground troops – and then, after ISIS is taken care of, they come up with some excuse to refuse to leave. Not a likely scenario, however. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/260 "2015-03-26T21:51:26Z")
Hm. Apparently U.S. air support [was made contingent on the Iranian-backed Shi’a militias pulling out of the fight](http://abcnews.go.com/International/tikrit-offensive-iranian-general-steps-us-steps/story?id=29930338), [which they have](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/middleeast/iraq-us-air-raids-islamic-state-isis.html?_r=0). That condition was either very smart or very stupid – we’ll find out which soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/261 "2015-03-27T03:13:29Z")
Well I think that is an interesting development! One of the biggest letdowns of our overthrow of Saddam &etc is that it resulted in gaining influence for Iran in the region. Here we are using our air power to fight our shared enemy with Iran, on the condition that Iran backs off instead of committing the atrocities that so many dreaded. Daesh gets defeated here, and the territory falls into Iraqi hands. Isn’t that the kind of outcome we’d want? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=14)