# ISIS needs to be destroyed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801 "2015-02-16T09:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/262 "2015-03-27T06:46:11Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Here we are using our air power to fight our shared enemy with Iran, on the condition that Iran backs off instead of committing the atrocities that so many dreaded. This is a gross oversimplification. The Shia militias backing off doesn’t mean Iran backing off - they have influence over the Iraqi government, too. The Shia militias backing off also doesn’t mean that no atrocities will happen - the regular Iraqi army is heavily Shia, is quite undisciplined, consists of angry young men, etc. What’s more, there is zero reason to believe that the Iranians were planning atrocities in the first place. Certain Shia militias, yes; their Iranian backers, not so much. Quite the opposite: > [@](#): > > Iranian commander Qasim Solaimani, who is coordinating the Tikrit campaign, has been trying to moderate their [the Shia militias’] behavior toward local Sunnis because he wants to improve Iran’s relations with Iraq’s north and west in the aftermath of the Daesh fiasco. As an additional twist, who knows if the Shia militias are even backing off in the first place. So far, I’ve seen nothing but talk. As I wrote over in that other thread: > [@](#): > > One moment, that American fellow in the Reuters article [[this one](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_14274385106786&key=ce270d38103a630c3181db372a25a052&libId=i7r80g27010004p6000DAfvs414xx&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D752747&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Firan-backed-militias-not-involved-tikrit-clearing-u-142015050.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ff%3D7&title=If%20the%20United%20States%20just%20ignored%20ISIS%2C%20what%27s%20the%20worst%20that%20could%20happen%3F%20-%20Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board&txt=this%20one)] brags about how the Shia militias “are no longer there” - the next moment, he acknowledged “that Shi’ite forces were still in the area, perhaps across the river, outside the city.” So are they packing up to go home for reals, or are they just sorta kinda lounging around on the sidelines, looking away awkwardly and avoiding eye contact while the Americans drop their bombs, waiting for a chance to rejoin the fight as soon as the Americans leave? [This](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_14274386121437&key=ce270d38103a630c3181db372a25a052&libId=i7r80g27010004p6000DAfvs414xx&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D752747&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F3760407%2Fisis-tikrit-shiite-us%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ff%3D7&title=If%20the%20United%20States%20just%20ignored%20ISIS%2C%20what%27s%20the%20worst%20that%20could%20happen%3F%20-%20Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board&txt=this%20one) Time article makes clear that the largest Shia militia - the Badr organisation - has not withdrawn, but is only “considering pulling out.” So really it seems far too early to say what is really going on. My guess? The Americans and the militias just don’t want to be seen supporting each other, and so they’ll play this little kabuki number where while the Americans bomb, the militias will feign shock and pretend to walk away, and while the militias advance, the Americans will feign shock and pretend to walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/263 "2015-03-27T07:09:22Z")
From the NYT article: > [@](#): > > “We are staying in Tikrit, we are not leaving and we are going to target the American-led coalition in Tikrit and their creation, ISIS,” said Akram al-Kabi, the leader of the Nujabaa Brigade, a powerful militia that has previously sent fighters to Syria on behalf of the Bashir al-Assad government there. Uh-oh. I think he’s on to us. > [@Steken](#): > > As an additional twist, who knows if the Shia militias are even backing off in the first place. So far, I’ve seen nothing but talk. Hey, the Shiite militias are saying they are _boycotting_ the fight. In my experience wartime reports are rarely misleading or inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/264 "2015-03-27T10:20:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > From the NYT article: Uh-oh. I think he’s on to us. Hey, the Shiite militias are saying they are _boycotting_ the fight. In my experience wartime reports are rarely misleading or inaccurate. Sure. Here’s the point to remember, though: The Iranians are there. The Shias are there. The militias are there. When they step back, re-group, “boycott” or walk away, do they disappear? No, of course not. They’re still there, or in any case close enough. So when and if the Americans get ISIS all weak and bloodied and stumbling, who do you think will step up to deliver the knockdown? The Iranians, the Shias, and the militias. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/265 "2015-03-27T20:45:17Z")
Thanks for setting me straight. I should’ve know better than to think there was some kind of silver lining in all this. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/266 "2015-03-28T12:47:13Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Thanks for setting me straight. I should’ve know better than to think there was some kind of silver lining in all this. Damn, now I feel bad. 😉 But hey lookit - [here’s a (potential) silver lining](http://www.niqash.org/articles/?id=3620) after all. It appears that the Shia politicians in Baghdad might have learned a thing or two from the Maliki-pissing-off-the-Sunnis debacle, and are now trying to find common ground with the Sunni minority parties. The Sadrists, for example, are talking to the (mostly Sunni) Iraqiya coalition, in the hopes of putting together “a cross-sectarian and multi-ethnic bloc.” So that’s always something, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/267 "2015-03-29T05:04:42Z")
[Silver lining](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/03/should-we-welcome-saudi-arabia-fight-middle-east). The article isn’t about ISIS: it’s about Saudi Arabia launching air attacks on Iranian proxies in Yemen. Traditionally, the Saudis would privately call the US up and arrange for us to do it, then complain about it at home. That’s not healthy. I think that development has parallels to our ISIS policy: _we are encouraging the local players eat their own dog food._ Iranian influence in Iraq is _inevitable_ and quite frankly legitimate. ISIS is much more their problem than ours. Hyperpowers like the US should really be in the nudge business rather than trying to play supercop. I perceive Iraqi kabuki as vastly superior to hamfisted invasion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/268 "2015-04-01T18:35:59Z")
[The Iraqi forces have retaken Tikrit.](http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-forces-hunt-diehard-jihadists-tikrit-victory-claim-091921686.html) However, there might still be some ISIS fighters holding out in some neighborhoods, and they have a **lot** of bombs and booby-traps to disarm. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/269 "2015-04-02T06:16:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [The Iraqi forces have retaken Tikrit.](http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-forces-hunt-diehard-jihadists-tikrit-victory-claim-091921686.html) However, there might still be some ISIS fighters holding out in some neighborhoods, and they have a **lot** of bombs and booby-traps to disarm. That characterization has been walked back by a number of observers. Still, promising news. > **[In Battered Tikrit, Iraqi Forces Claim Much, But Not All Of City](https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/04/01/396858544/in-battered-tikrit-iraqi-forces-claim-much-but-not-all-of-city)** > > The Iraqi military, with help from the U.S. and Iran, now holds most of Tikrit after a month of heavy fighting with the Islamic State. NPR's Alice Fordham visited and says the city is still volatile. > **[Iraqi Claims That ‘Tikrit Has Fallen’ Is Disputed (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/01/world/middleeast/iraq-tikrit-isis.html)** > > Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi said government forces had reached the center of Tikrit, which some took to mean a declaration of victory. But Islamic State forces still hold parts of the city. Meanwhile, ISIS grabs new territory in Syria (as have their fellow rebels): > **[ISIS Seizes New Territory in Deadly Attacks in Syria (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/world/middleeast/syria-isis-advances-in-hama-and-damascus.html)** > > Islamic State militants are reported to have launched offensives on two fronts — in the province of Hama and near Damascus, residents said. [http://rt.com/news/246045-yarmouk-isis-damascus-refugees/](http://rt.com/news/246045-yarmouk-isis-damascus-refugees/) ISIS is 6 km from Syrian President Assad’s residence. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/270 "2015-04-02T22:07:36Z")
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32147888](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32147888) IS militants ‘enter Yarmouk refugee camp’ in Syrian capital ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/271 "2015-04-02T22:43:39Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > it’s about Saudi Arabia launching air attacks on Iranian proxies in Yemen. I’s be rather cautious about that characterization. Iranian-backed is a safer phrase. Traditionally the Zaydi north Yemen tribes don’t _do_ proxy. They have their own reasons for being in a fight and I’m pretty certain it has absolutely zero to do with the relative standing of SA and Iran. The Saudis and Iranianis may be jumping into the conflict and betting on different horses to maintain or expand their influences, respectively. But at least with the Houthis, I wouldn’t assume any string-pulling. SA has been on the opposite side of the fence back in the [1960’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yemen_Civil_War) when it was Saudi-backed Zaydi royalists against Egyptians and Egyptian-backed Yemeni pan-Arabists. There ain’t nothing new under the sun, really. Yemen has always been a very dangerous and rather unstable place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/272 "2015-04-16T19:15:30Z")
[ISIS strikes back:](http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/middleeast/iraq-isis/) They are besieging the city of [Ramadi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadi), 70 miles west of Baghdad and capital of the heavily Sunni province of Al Anbar. [Families are fleeing.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/16/middleeast/iraq-ramadi-isis-damon/) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/273 "2015-04-20T19:36:48Z")
A cache of documents were found in a ISIS Syrian safe house, whose resident was killed in a firefight. They discuss the coalition between Islamicists and Iraqi military men that makes up ISIS. The new reveal is that ISIS was created by Saddam’s former men. They provided military strategy. They chose the guy who would be the self-proclaimed caliph. They had deep ties to Syrian intelligence, which allowed them to form an uneasy partnership with Assad’s regime, where they would focus their efforts on common enemies. They had knowledge of running a totalitarian state: that’s no small thing. The generals’ goal was to use ISIS as a method of taking over Iraq and re-establishing the old regime. The US was persuaded to invade Iraq on the basis of alleged ties between Saddam and Islamicists: those allegations were lies. [INDENT]"But the invasion made this falsehood true… One of America’s first decisions on taking Iraq-- a terrible mistake that has halted the region ever sense-- was to disband Iraq’s enormous army, leaving its officers and soldiers with no income… “bitter and unemployed”. [/INDENT] They would later form the nucleus of ISIS. [The secret plot behind the creation of ISIS - Vox](http://www.vox.com/2015/4/20/8451627/isis-iraq-saddam) I say elections matter. Incompetence matters. Active decisions to pass over expert opinion in favor of fantasies of glory matter. There are negotiators, there are hawks, there are chicken hawks and there are those who never encounter a potential war they don’t like. The latter are a disgrace. Seriously – that characterization is appropriate if the claims are true, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=13)