# ISIS needs to be destroyed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801 "2015-02-16T09:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/121 "2015-02-20T17:07:38Z")
It’s important to distinguish between how the administration _describes_ ISIS in its public pronouncements and how it _understands_ and reacts to ISIS. Other than Obama’s eminently understandable policy of mostly avoiding the word “Islam,” there’s no evidence AFAICT that the administration fails to understand that in ISIS they’re dealing with Muslims, albeit of a twisted and non-mainstream variety. Yes, they haven’t sent 100,000 troops to Dabiq to give these guys the apocalyptic ass-whooping they so desire, but that could be because Woods is wrong that this would be an effective strategy. Anyway, droning into oblivion hundreds of terrorists (and innocent civilians) over the course of 6 years, probably 100% of whom were Muslim, is an odd way to telegraph that you don’t view the current terrorist threat as predominantly involving Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/122 "2015-02-20T17:18:46Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Thanks RP, you’ve given me some stuff to think about. > . I think Wood gets some things right and other things wrong. That’s pretty much true for all of us. It is just frustrating to me that this article–among the many good analyses of ISIS–is getting all the attention, when it happens to have war-mongering and vaguely Islamophobic errors among its correct points. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Anyway, droning into oblivion hundreds of terrorists (and innocent civilians) over the course of 6 years, probably 100% of whom were Muslim, is an odd way to telegraph that you don’t view the current terrorist threat as predominantly involving Muslims. More than that, the Obama Administration’s approach to terrorism considers it almost exclusively a Muslim phenomenon, when the reality is that more Americans (and Europeans, for that matter) are the victims of terrorists motivated by right-wing ideologies–to say nothing of the exponentially higher odds of, say, drowning in your own bathtub. Yet the White House “Countering Violent Extremism” Summit, for all the much bally-hood downplaying of calling terrorism Islamic, was exclusively focused on Muslims. In some cases, the Muslim terrorists are more organized than the kind of guys who lynch a random black dude out of white supremacist motivations, or who shoot up a federal building because of anti-tax views. And I think that’s the best case you can make for focusing on them. But increasingly that is exactly the kind of Muslim terrorism we face, from the Boston Bombing on–actors radicalized by extremist Islam in very much the way that some dudes in Mississippi sentenced for lynching last month were radicalized without any particular connection to the organized KKK. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/123 "2015-02-20T23:12:36Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > [What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/) > > I think the overall point being missed… is that they (in their minds) have no choice. It never ends… simply put… They’ll going long haul. The Caliphate must be restored and everyone must either covert or subjugate themselves to Islam. The others… particularly the Shia… aren’t muslims to them. I don’t think its a money/power grab… they’ll go until they end up like the Khmer Rouge… However, Wood is careful to say: > [@](#): > > And yet the risks of escalation are enormous. The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: irrespective of whether they have given _baya’a_ to the caliph, they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of ISIS, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job? > > Given everything we know about the Islamic State, continuing to slowly bleed it, through air strikes and proxy warfare, appears the best of bad military options. Neither the Kurds nor the Shia will ever subdue and control the whole Sunni heartland of Syria and Iraq—they are hated there, and have no appetite for such an adventure anyway. But they can keep the Islamic State from fulfilling its duty to expand. And with every month that it fails to expand, it resembles less the conquering state of the Prophet Muhammad than yet another Middle Eastern government failing to bring prosperity to its people. > > The humanitarian cost of the Islamic State’s existence is high. But its threat to the United States is smaller than its all too frequent conflation with al-Qaeda would suggest. Al-Qaeda’s core is rare among jihadist groups for its focus on the “far enemy” (the West); most jihadist groups’ main concerns lie closer to home. That’s especially true of the Islamic State, precisely because of its ideology. It sees enemies everywhere around it, and while its leadership wishes ill on the United States, the application of Sharia in the caliphate and the expansion to contiguous lands are paramount. Baghdadi has said as much directly: in November he told his Saudi agents to “deal with the _rafida_ [Shia] first … then _al-Sulul_ [Sunni supporters of the Saudi monarchy] … before the crusaders and their bases.” > > \ > > Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor. As it stagnates or slowly shrinks, its claim that it is the engine of God’s will and the agent of apocalypse will weaken, and fewer believers will arrive. And as more reports of misery within it leak out, radical Islamist movements elsewhere will be discredited: _No one has tried harder to implement strict Sharia by violence. This is what it looks like._ ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/124 "2015-02-21T05:53:54Z")
> [@](#): > > the rest of the middle east cares very much about the Iraq and the Syria, although americans do not. Try not to think that what you think is what the others think. They are historically productive centers and where there is much history dear to the arab islamic view point. So you agree ISIS is not America’s problem first? We can count on the rest of the middle east to deal with this? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/125 "2015-02-21T10:59:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … at the end of the day it certainly seems that ISIS is Islamic in a way that Al-Qaeda ?? Al Qaeda ideology is far more orthodox than that of the DAESH. You are confused. Their common points are about justifying violence, but even al Qaeda has not taken the takfiri logic this far. > [@](#): > > we then all have to say “But this interpretation of Islam isn’t really Islamic,” I guess I’m just left scratching my head. But maybe I’m just being too literal. I think you are not understanding, the point that has been made is that the manner which they are cherry picking to support their violence is very far from the mainstream islamic traditions that go back even to the early times. They have a very distorted and perverted approach even if we take the ancient standards. Can you call that unislamic - yes if you are of al Azhar or al Qaraouine. > [@](#): > > In any case, I found Woods’ article informative and enlightening. it is sad unfortunately he got so many things incorrectly explained. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/126 "2015-02-21T13:52:40Z")
Another helpful take: [The Atlantic Ignores Muslim Intellectuals, Defines “True Islam” As ISIS - The Intercept](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/20/atlantic-defines-real-islam-says-isis/) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/127 "2015-02-22T00:15:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [QUOTE=Atlantic Article] > Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor. As it stagnates or slowly shrinks, its claim that it is the engine of God’s will and the agent of apocalypse will weaken, and fewer believers will arrive. And as more reports of misery within it leak out, radical Islamist movements elsewhere will be discredited: No one has tried harder to implement strict Sharia by violence. This is what it looks like. [/QUOTE] In other words, _contra_ to the OP, **DAESH needs to be contained.** Not destroyed. Contained. That way they can collapse on their own and provide the power of a bad example. Or the regional players could wake up, combine, and run them over. That would be ok too. DEASH may have discovered that videos with high production values can be shot cheaply today while professional editing software can be run on an inexpensive laptop. But the fact remains that Syria’s Assad has a far higher body count. DAESH must be struck with a thousand cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/128 "2015-02-25T08:34:53Z")
Vox: [ISIS is losing](http://www.vox.com/2015/2/23/8085197/is-isis-losing). It turns out they lack friends. Who woulda thought? The sort of ideological demands outlined in Wood’s Atlantic article lead them to blunders. [INDENT]So ISIS troops will remain out in the open, making them vulnerable to American and coalition bombs. They’ll engage in conventional fights with superior enemies, because they need to keep them out of ISIS territory. And they’ll continue attacking neutral parties or potential partners, because they hold territory that ISIS wants. [/INDENT] Then again, “As ISIS has retreated, the al-Qaeda franchise Jabhat al-Nusra has advanced, standing to gain both territory and recruits.” So even after DAESH is crushed (and it will take a while) there will still be plenty of fodder for pit threads. Yay! ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/129 "2015-02-25T11:07:56Z")
[Wood graciously responds to his critics](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants-reader-response-atlantic/385710/) – and reports about how his article was received by ISIS and its supporters. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/130 "2015-02-25T21:17:57Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > It sounds like ISIL really ISN’T like all the other revolutionaries. They don’t want to establish a new order. They want to bring about the End Times. Interesting. > > ::SNIP!::: They’re immanentizing the Eschaton! ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/131 "2015-02-25T22:05:33Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > **Measure for Measure** , surely you don’t mean to imply that the US has (or might ever engage in) ever engaged in a pointless war?!?!?! This is inconceivable! Absolutely! That point would be to make MONEY. (Whaddaya think this is? Russia?) Ammo, hardware, spare parts, refit/repair services, uniforms, commissary services, as well as free use of live-fire testing grounds to judge the performance of technologically-improved weapons systems which the companies will Never Ever have to clean up. Hurry! Declare War Now and Haliburton will offer up to 20% off the initial purchase of the Blackwater “Comand And Control Beatdown” package with 5% off the regular monthly maintenance. Remember, with this package you’ll get regular INTEL on an easy to read monthly bill on the whereabouts of [del]Osama Bin Laden[/del] Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi… \*Offer Void where prohibited by International Law or Actually Taxed by The United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/132 "2015-02-26T06:27:23Z")
In the news, Obama is debating sending special op guys to call in airstrikes when the Kurds move to take Mosul. So we very well may see some fatalities. Republican Presidential candidates want Obama to do more. An astonishing 71% of Republican primary voters want US _ground troops_ fighting ISIL. I oppose this. Mosul is about 5 times the size of Fallujah and would require perhaps 2-3 times as many troops to take over. 15,000 coalition troops fought in Fallujah. I say ISIL is primarily a Middle Eastern problem and I commend the Kurds for stepping up to the plate. The US, IMO, should provide assistance in the form of blood and treasury. But it’s not our battle, grisly videos of a handful of Americans notwithstanding. If a Republican Presidential candidate says we should do more to fight ISIL, patriotic Americans should demand details. What, exactly, should the US be doing that we’re not doing now? [h/t Kevin Drum](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/02/i-want-hear-republican-plan-fighting-isis) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/133 "2015-02-26T07:39:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > In the news, Obama is debating sending special op guys to call in airstrikes when the Kurds move to take Mosul. I think the idea is for _the Iraqi Army_ taking Mosul. The Kurds will play a supporting role. Of course, the underlying problem is the same now as it was when Mosul first fell: The Iraqi Army is overwhelmingly Shia, while the population of Mosul is overwhelmingly Sunni… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/134 "2015-02-26T16:13:24Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I think the idea is for _the Iraqi Army_ taking Mosul. The Kurds will play a supporting role. Of course, the underlying problem is the same now as it was when Mosul first fell: The Iraqi Army is overwhelmingly Shia, while the population of Mosul is overwhelmingly Sunni… Also, the Kurds (mostly Sunni) want Mosul (mostly non-Kurdish) for **their** capital. Interesting times. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/135 "2015-02-26T16:19:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Also, the Kurds (mostly Sunni) want Mosul (mostly non-Kurdish) for **their** capital. Interesting times. You sure? I thought the Kurds wanted Erbil as their capital. With Kirkuk, “the Kurdish Jerusalem,” as a kind of symbolic bonus capital. [This article](http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/06/march-mosul-and-future-kurdistan-309207.html) describes Mosul as “a largely Sunni-Arab city that historically had only a small minority of Kurds and is outside the semiautonomous region of Kurdistan.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/136 "2015-02-26T17:19:19Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > You sure? I thought the Kurds wanted Erbil as their capital. With Kirkuk, “the Kurdish Jerusalem,” as a kind of symbolic bonus capital. > > [This article](http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/06/march-mosul-and-future-kurdistan-309207.html) describes Mosul as “a largely Sunni-Arab city that historically had only a small minority of Kurds and is outside the semiautonomous region of Kurdistan.” But it was the capital of the Ottoman _vilayet_ that included Iraqi Kurdistan. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/137 "2015-02-26T18:35:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But it was the capital of the Ottoman _vilayet_ that included Iraqi Kurdistan. As an aside, it was also, under its old name Nineveh, the capital of the ancient Assyrian Empire. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/138 "2015-02-26T18:52:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As an aside, it was also, under its old name Nineveh, the capital of the ancient Assyrian Empire. When or where Could you compare High life To the life you find here? Not since Nineveh, not since Tyre, Not since Babylon turned to mire For a sin of a kind we never mind here! Where or when ever again Low life Like the life well known here? Not sine Nineveh, not since Sidon, Not since Jericho started slidin’ From the din of a horn that’s never blown here! – _Kismet_ ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/139 "2015-02-28T05:15:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > What, exactly, should the US be doing that we’re not doing now? Define the problem as primarily the Middle East’s. Provide air support, strive to work in concert with regional allied ground forces to take ground against ISIL. If regional allied ground forces prove insufficient, and if American air power alone cannot stop ISIL, then ISIL conquers the entire Middle East. At that point it is one-on-one America v. ISIL. America conquers ISIL, installs a Governor and is done with the whole shit-show forever. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801/140 "2015-02-28T06:58:58Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Define the problem as primarily the Middle East’s. Provide air support, strive to work in concert with regional allied ground forces to take ground against ISIL. If regional allied ground forces prove insufficient, and if American air power alone cannot stop ISIL, then ISIL conquers the entire Middle East. At that point it is one-on-one America v. ISIL. America conquers ISIL, installs a Governor and is done with the whole shit-show forever. Please tell me you’re joking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-needs-to-be-destroyed/712801.md?page=8)