# ISIS--you're going down **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073 "2014-08-08T01:00:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/201 "2014-08-10T23:33:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do you want Obama to do? Well, I sure don’t want him to improvise in a reactive fashion, as if we couldn’t control events! No sir! People won’t respect us if we can’t control the Sunni, the Shia, Iran, the IS, Syria, Israel, the Pope and the weather. I think our best bet right now is helping the Kurds. If they can hand IS a defeat, it will go a long way towards countering the narrative of having God on their side. What do I think IS will do? I think they will blow up that dam because its big, dramatic and stupid. Which is what crazy people love more than anything. To answer the question more directly, I won’t know what I want him to do until the other guy does what he’s gonna do. He’s operating at a huge disadvantage, he doesn’t have any smart moves, so he has to figure out the least stupid. And if I had to pick someone to make that choice, it would be him. Assuming that you are too busy, of course… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/202 "2014-08-10T23:35:21Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > That’s Adaher. One keeps hoping that he’ll learn something, but it’s in vain. His fact-free devotion to his favorite team, and corresponding irrational hatred of the opposing side, will brook no argument from the reality-based world. > > That’s politics. One might wish such demagoguery would wane with the information age, but no such luck. > > In terms of the situation in Iraq, I’ve yet to hear a convincing argument (that’s not Captain Hindsight obvious) as to how Obama or the USA could have handled the situation more effectively. > > As always with such operations, escalation is a legitimate fear. So far I trust Obama to not drag the USA into another quagmire. Democrats have been playing a dangerous game with the airpower-only BS. It’s one of those things that works great until it doesn’t and then you’ve got two choices: retreat with your tail between your legs, or commit ground troops. You seem to trust Obama to retreat should airpower fail. I apparently have more faith in him than you do, and I’m not even a supporter. I think that Obama, like any President who doesn’t want to go down in history as a total failure, will do whatever it takes to see us to victory. There’s no such thing in war as dipping your toe in. Once you’re in, you’re in it until you win or lose. Obama will see that we win. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/203 "2014-08-10T23:42:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > …Obama will see that we win. Perhaps someday, when I am older and wiser, I will have learned to suppress my morbid curiosity. What, exactly, would victory look like? Does it still smell like napalm? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/204 "2014-08-11T00:14:55Z")
We won the last two times, and this is the result. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/205 "2014-08-11T01:48:07Z")
Yeah a few more victories and we’ll be bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/206 "2014-08-11T01:50:28Z")
What? All that free Iraqi oil is going to keep us flush for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/207 "2014-08-11T03:16:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And #1, by far, was the Soviet Union. But sure, if you want to blame France too, that’s fine. You, sir, would be hard pressed to be stupider if you tried. Quite aside from the fact that Saddam Hussein was not imposed upon Iraq by the Soviet Union (your original claim), you seem to have been unable to retain this pertinent bit of information in what passes as the grey matter in your head when reading from one sentence to the next. Here, I’ll even bold it for you this time: > [@](#): > > In foreign affairs, Saddam sought to have Iraq play a leading role in the Middle East. Iraq signed an aid pact with the Soviet Union in 1972, and arms were sent along with several thousand advisers. **However, the 1978 crackdown on Iraqi Communists and a shift of trade toward the West strained Iraqi relations with the Soviet Union** ; Iraq then took on a more Western orientation until the Gulf War in 1991. > … > > Iraq invaded Iran, first attacking Mehrabad Airport of Tehran and then entering the oil-rich Iranian land of Khuzestan, which also has a sizable Arab minority, on 22 September 1980 and declared it a new province of Iraq. With the support of the Arab states, the United States, and Europe, and heavily financed by the Arab states of the Persian Gulf, Saddam Hussein had become “the defender of the Arab world” against a revolutionary Iran. **The only exception was the Soviet Union, who initially refused to supply Iraq on the basis of neutrality in the conflict, although in his memoirs, Mikhail Gorbachev claimed that Leonid Brezhnev refused to aid Saddam over infuriation of Saddam’s treatment of Iraqi communists.** ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/208 "2014-08-11T04:27:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Perhaps someday, when I am older and wiser, I will have learned to suppress my morbid curiosity. > > What, exactly, would victory look like? Does it still smell like napalm? The mission is to prevent ISIS from taking over Kurdish land, and to prevent them from massacring the Yazidis. It’s a limited, doable mission, and if bombing doesn’t work, then the President will use ground troops to fulfill the mission. It’s not like we haven’t done it before. The first Bush did it with Operation Provide Comfort. If we could protect the Kurds from Saddam Hussein’s huge military, we can certainly protect the Kurds from a band of fighters. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/209 "2014-08-11T04:29:18Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You, sir, would be hard pressed to be stupider if you tried. Quite aside from the fact that Saddam Hussein was not imposed upon Iraq by the Soviet Union (your original claim), you seem to have been unable to retain this pertinent bit of information in what passes as the grey matter in your head when reading from one sentence to the next. Here, I’ll even bold it for you this time: Soviet support is what kept Saddam in power long after his people would have overthrown him. Without that massive army he would have been hanged a long time ago. At worst, he wouldn’t have been able to engage in his adventurism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/210 "2014-08-11T05:04:17Z")
The renowned and respected expert in geopolitics, Sen. Lindsey Graham, has offered his sage advice and wisdom: **Lindsey Graham: Iraq And Syria ‘Coming Here’ To U.S. Mainland If Obama Doesn’t Go To War** > **[Lindsey Graham: Iraq And Syria ‘Coming Here’ To U.S. Mainland If Obama...](https://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/lindsey-graham-iraq-and-syria-coming-here)** > > Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) warned on Sunday that militants in Iraq and Syria would attack the U.S. mainland if President Barack Obama did not immediately take military action to stop them. > [@](#): > > Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) warned on Sunday that militants in Iraq and Syria would attack the U.S. mainland if President Barack Obama did not immediately take military action to stop them. …(barf!)…I think of an American city in flames because of the terrorists’ ability to operate in Syria and Iraq,…(cringe)… What is your strategy to stop these people from attacking the homeland?"… > [@](#): > > …The senior senator from South Carolina recommended a “sustained air campaign in Syria and Iraq.”… . Dialing it back down to eleven…"_air_ campaign?..mmmm, yes. Quite. > [@](#): > > …“Are you saying we should go back to war in Iraq?” Wallace wondered. > > “I’m saying that Iraq and Syria combined represent a direct threat to our homeland,” he explained. “His responsibility as president is to defend this nation. If he does not go on the offensive against ISIS, ISIL – whatever you want to call these guys – they are coming here!”… Fuck > [@](#): > > …“It is about our homeland, and if we get attacked because he has no strategy to protect us then he will have committed a blunder for the ages.”… Fuck. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/211 "2014-08-11T05:10:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Soviet support is what kept Saddam in power long after his people would have overthrown him. Without that massive army he would have been hanged a long time ago. At worst, he wouldn’t have been able to engage in his adventurism. Wild supposition. Who would have ousted Saddam between 1979 and 1984? And besides, which adventurism are you talking about? Because if it was after, oh, about 1983, much of Saddam’s military support came from [a very different source](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/f/f2/Shakinghands_high.OGG/Shakinghands_high.OGG.360p.webm). That included, by the by, “dual-use” technology like chemical weapon precursors, anthrax, botulism, and the motherfucking _bubonic plague_. I imagine you have a sliver of an argument that Saddam managed to stage his coup and thereafter retain power by virtue of an army that had to that point been greatly built and supported by the USSR. But if that’s what you’re trying to say, you’re making a complete hash of it. And frankly, it’s a silly point anyway. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/212 "2014-08-11T05:46:04Z")
Elucidator, I have been told by nearly 100% of liberals that after 9/11 no President would have failed to take military action against the terrorists that attacked us. Given liberal reluctance to fight ISIS, which subscribes to the very same goals as al Qaeda, I have to wonder if that was ever really true. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/213 "2014-08-11T06:01:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Elucidator, I have been told by nearly 100% of liberals that after 9/11 no President would have failed to take military action against the terrorists that attacked us. Given liberal reluctance to fight ISIS, which subscribes to the very same goals as al Qaeda, I have to wonder if that was ever really true. That’s sickening. You’re sickening. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/214 "2014-08-11T06:44:51Z")
Maybe, but on the other hand, Japan attacked the US and Roosevelt didn’t invade Costa Rica in response. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/215 "2014-08-11T07:11:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that Obama, like any President who doesn’t want to go down in history as a total failure, will do whatever it takes to see us to victory. There’s no such thing in war as dipping your toe in. Once you’re in, you’re in it until you win or lose. Obama will see that we win. Probably he will, for some realistic subset of “win”. But “see that we win” != “get us into another quagmire”, i.e. something won’t win. > [@adaher](#): > > The mission is to prevent ISIS from taking over Kurdish land, and to prevent them from massacring the Yazidis. It’s a limited, doable mission, and if bombing doesn’t work, then the President will use ground troops to fulfill the mission. Probably right, as long as Iraq and the international community are in support. > [@adaher](#): > > Elucidator, I have been told by nearly 100% of liberals that after 9/11 no President would have failed to take military action against the terrorists that attacked us. Given liberal reluctance to fight ISIS, which subscribes to the very same goals as al Qaeda, I have to wonder if that was ever really true. We haven’t had any liberal presidents in decades. If you think Clinton and Obama are liberal, that just proves you have no idea what liberal means. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/216 "2014-08-11T07:23:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only thing that kept that man in power was his enormous arsenal of T-72 tanks and Mig fighters. Saddam started working for the CIA as an assassin, trying to kill the then-ruler of Iraq, Qasim. He failed and got shot by his own men, and the CIA evacuated him. Eventually he got into power and the Americans gave him satellite intel and aerial weaponry to fight Iran. He was an ally of the USA, not the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/217 "2014-08-11T07:32:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What do I think IS will do? I think they will blow up that dam because its big, dramatic and stupid. Which is what crazy people love more than anything. No. All the territory that would be destroyed is territory they occupy. Of course if the fighting between IS and their former allies amongst former-Saddam troops continues, or someone pushes them back to Mosul, then they might. It’s more likely that they just won’t maintain the damn, which is built on gypsum, properly and it will collapse, which could happen at any minute. Given that Maliki is currently staging a coup against the Iraqi constitution they’re probably more likely to drown in blood than the waters of the Mosul dam. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/218 "2014-08-11T08:24:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Soviet support is what kept Saddam in power long after his people would have overthrown him. Without that massive army he would have been hanged a long time ago. At worst, he wouldn’t have been able to engage in his adventurism. I take it back, you can be stupider if you try. The Iraqi Army was anything but massive before the 1980 invasion of Iran, with a total strength of 12 divisions. While the size of the divisions became somewhat smaller, the number of them ballooned during the 8 year long meat grinding slugfest to over 44 divisions. Here are some [actual figures for you to ignore](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War): > [@](#): > > _At the onset of the war_: 110,000–150,000 soldiers, > 2,100 tanks,[8] > 1,000 armoured vehicles, > 1072 artillery pieces,[9] > 320 aircraft, > 750 helicopters > _After Iraq withdrew from Iran in 1982_: 350,000 soldiers, > 700 tanks, > 2,700 armoured vehicles, > 400 artillery pieces, > 350 aircraft, > 700 helicopters > _At the end of the war_: 900,000 soldiers, > 2,500,000 militia, > 400 tanks, > 800 armoured vehicles, > 600 artillery pieces, > 60–80 aircraft, > 70–90 helicopters You may recall much being made of Iraq having the 4th largest army in the world after the Iran-Iraq War. Secondly, and much more importantly, what the fuck do you call his invasion of Iran in 1980 if not blind adventurism to take advantage of what was misperceived as Iranian weakness in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution in 1979 that proved to bite him in the ass? It seems I have to remind you yet again that > [@](#): > > **The only exception was the Soviet Union, who initially refused to supply Iraq on the basis of neutrality in the conflict, although in his memoirs, Mikhail Gorbachev claimed that Leonid Brezhnev refused to aid Saddam over infuriation of Saddam’s treatment of Iraqi communists.** Odd, by far his greatest adventurism and the Soviets cut him off - were, in fact the only ones to cut him off for the first couple of years after he started the war.\* He invaded Kuwait in 1990, two years after the Iran-Iraq War ended because he was massively in debt to Kuwait and other Gulf States, and to a much lesser degree Europe and the US which had bankrolled him in the war against Iran. He was in effect trying to pay off his mortgage by robbing the bank that had lent it to him and was hoping to intimidate the other Gulf States he was in debt to to forgiving the loans or suffer Kuwait’s fate. So if you want to blame anyone for the massive growth in the size of his army and his ability to sustain his 8 year failed adventurism in Iran followed by his failed adventurism in Kuwait in an attempt to avoid paying the piper, you can blame Kuwait and the very Gulf States that lent him huge amounts of money out of their fear of Iran. - Oh, and by the way, Iraq never had that many T-72s; by far most of it was earlier Warsaw Pact gear and a hell of a lot of it was Chinese knock-offs, not even Soviet or even Warsaw Pact at all. [See here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_equipment_of_the_Iraqi_Army). Note for example 1,500 Type 69 MBTs, 2,323 YW531 APCs, and 623 YW701 APCs. Even a lot of your precious MiGs were in fact [Chendu J-7s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-7), a MiG-21 knockoff and [Shenyang J-6s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-6), a MiG-19 knockoff. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/219 "2014-08-11T08:46:55Z")
ISIS is going down, just like when we took out Al-Qaeda. Remember that? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/220 "2014-08-11T08:47:43Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And besides, which adventurism are you talking about? Because if it was after, oh, about 1983, much of Saddam’s military support came from [a very different source](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/f/f2/Shakinghands_high.OGG/Shakinghands_high.OGG.360p.webm). That included, by the by, “dual-use” technology like chemical weapon precursors, anthrax, botulism, and the motherfucking _bubonic plague_. Ugg, this shit just never dies. **None** of Saddam’s military support came from the US; not before 1983, not after 1983. The US did not sell or give so much as a single rifle, tank, bullet, combat aircraft, ship, or artillery piece to Iraq. Go ahead, try to prove me wrong. It never happened. Rumsfeld, AKA the Antichrist shaking his hand doesn’t change that fact. Remember the big stink about being shot at by our own weapons we had sold to the Shah whenever we had a dust-up with Iran? Remember the complete lack of such a stink during Desert Storm or that unholy 2003 invasion of Iraq? “Dual-use” technology refers to the fact that the equipment used in the manufacture of chemical and biological weaponry is the same equipment that has perfectly legitimate uses in the chemical and pharmaceutical industries. Nerve gas was first developed as a pesticide. US chemical companies sold Iraq some dual-use equipment, and it is pretty hard to act all innocent about knowing what it was actually being used for, which is why three people were convicted of export offenses - in Germany. By far Iraq’s chemical weapons program came from Europe, with Germany at the top of the list, being responsible for 52% of its chemical weapons manufacturing equipment. Very little of it came from the US. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program): > [@](#): > > As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kolb helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. All told, 52% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin.[citation needed] One of the contributions was a £14m chlorine plant known as “Falluja 2”, built by Uhde Ltd, a UK subsidiary of a German company; the plant was given financial guarantees by the UK’s Export Credits Guarantee Department despite official UK recognition of a “strong possibility” the plant would be used to make mustard gas.[4] The guarantees led to UK government payment of £300,000 to Uhde in 1990 after completion of the plant was interrupted by the first Gulf War.[4] In 1994 and 1996 three people were convicted in Germany of export offenses.[5] > > France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapon use also came from Italy. About 100 tons of mustard gas also came from Brazil. The United States exported $500 million of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce Department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program. Austria also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, 16% of the international sales. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gasses. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073.md?page=12)