# ISIS--you're going down **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073 "2014-08-08T01:00:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/161 "2014-08-10T04:38:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only reason I suggested waiting until Iraq requested it is out of respect for their sovereignty. What a joke. If the US actually did have respect for their sovereignty the government under Bush II never would have trumped up false evidence or invaded Iraq in 2003 with the goal of forcing regime change. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/162 "2014-08-10T05:27:01Z")
I reject the idea that a nation with a Soviet-imposed dictator is sovereign in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/163 "2014-08-10T05:29:13Z")
Is this a Donetsk thread? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/164 "2014-08-10T05:31:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only reason I suggested waiting until Iraq requested it is out of respect for their sovereignty. > > As for rushing into war, rushing to start a war is bad. Dithering while a war is going on and your allies are losing is not a virtue. > [@elucidator](#): > > “Allies” is, as usual, a term of art. I am ready to see us help protect the fearful and the helpless. The fact that it supports the Maliki regime is an undesirable collateral benefit. At least some of the sympathy these monsters enjoy amongst the Sunni element is due to the Sunni sense of grievance at his hands. Truly, the Shia well deserve \*their \*sense of grievance at the hands of the Sunni, but a regime of retribution is not a government. Worse, it’s a term of politics. Iraq is our ally in the political sense, but not in the actual sense. The government cares nothing about us or our interests, except as a guarantor of their hold on power. I laud Obama for attempting to only stick his toe into this morass, which is much less than any of his Republican rivals would do. But there’s a Greek tragedy there somewhere. Something like a tragic Hero’s toe being grabbed by a crocodile and pulled in over his head into the swamp. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/165 "2014-08-10T05:46:20Z")
Oh, a crocodile, eh, **John**? Any particular reason you pick a dangerous _African_ animal? Like you would find in _Kenya_? He’s from Hawaii, you know, so maybe you could have picked a…picked a…well, you could have found _something!_ ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/166 "2014-08-10T06:00:25Z")
The Kurds are our allies I’m all for the staying out, but we owe it to them. That stuff is just wrong - stop those motherfuckers. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/167 "2014-08-10T06:33:17Z")
Related: “There’s A Big Paradox About The US Fighting ISIS In Iraq [UPDATED]” > [@](#): > > ISIS is using modern U.S. weapons its fighters have seized from Iraqi forces, while the Kurds fight with Soviet arms. > **[There's A Big Paradox About The US Fighting ISIS In Iraq \[UPDATED\]](https://www.businessinsider.com/isis-weapons-in-iraq-2014-8)** > > "They are literally outgunned by an ISIS that is fighting with hundreds of millions of dollars of U.S. military equipment." ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/168 "2014-08-10T09:11:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I reject the idea that a nation with a Soviet-imposed dictator is sovereign in any meaningful sense. Who? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/169 "2014-08-10T09:34:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The nice thing about large pieces of equipment is that we’re very good at breaking them. Much of it is in Syria, where the US won’t intervene because they still support the anti-Assad forces, which are now effectively Isis. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/170 "2014-08-10T09:34:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, a crocodile, eh, **John**? Any particular reason you pick a dangerous _African_ animal? Like you would find in _Kenya_? > > He’s from Hawaii, you know, so maybe you could have picked a…picked a…well, you could have found _something!_ Giant clam? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/171 "2014-08-10T10:23:08Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > To quote a thread on another board I read, where a lot of stories about ISIS have been posted: Yes, but the question is how they will do it _ **without** _ that stuff. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Looks like Obama is now committed to long term action, now saying we’re going to be bombing them for longer than “weeks”. I don’t understand his foreign policy-- it seems ridiculously reactive. If he’s willing to bomb ISIL for an extended period of time now, why didn’t he do so 2 months ago? Kurdistan is armed, capable and willing to fight back. The rest of Iraq, not so much. Airstrikes are support, not the full package - you need people on the ground or they’re not going to be worth much. The Kurds are useful to the US and have been their allies in the past. The rest of Iraq is probably just a liability, and Maliki is probably on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/172 "2014-08-10T14:21:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I reject the idea that a nation with a Soviet-imposed dictator is sovereign in any meaningful sense. When did this thread become about The Prague Spring? Because that’s about the last time I can think of this happening. I most certainly hope you are not trying to refer to Saddam Hussein as a Soviet-imposed dictator, which you appear to be doing, because that’s just entering an entirely new universe of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/173 "2014-08-10T14:41:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Giant clam? Mutant, swimming macadamia nut? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/174 "2014-08-10T15:28:53Z")
The Hawaiian armadillo is reputed to be very fierce, as well as elusive. Strong swimmer. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/175 "2014-08-10T15:29:42Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > So the way they’ll do it without artillery and heavy equipment is… using artillery and heavy equipment? It’s posts like that one that sometimes make me very tired when I post on this forum. I explain that traditional heavy weaponry is exactly what we’d be destroying via airstrikes–because you can’t really fucking hide an armored column in a village like you can a a squad of insurgents. Then someone like **blindboyard** explains that the way ISIS would successful invade Kurdish Iraq is with the heavy equipment I’ve already posited is going to be destroyed. I do give you thanks for immediately noticing and correcting this nonsense. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Looks like Obama is now committed to long term action, now saying we’re going to be bombing them for longer than “weeks”. I don’t understand his foreign policy-- it seems ridiculously reactive. If he’s willing to bomb ISIL for an extended period of time now, why didn’t he do so 2 months ago? It is absolutely reactive, Obama will never be proactive in foreign policy, partially because I think he doesn’t understand it. Something I’ve always speculated is the sort of skills in team work and outreach he learned from being a community organizer and a gifted public speaker are ill suited for foreign relations while being supremely suited to winning elections. Foreign relations are about the intrinsic interests of different parties, understanding them, and also acting based on how you know other countries will act based on _their_ intrinsic self interest. Obama doesn’t understand that and approaches foreign policy more like domestic policy, where he thinks by making Putin seem “old fashioned and stupid” he’s winning points. But Putin can’t be beaten at a ballot box like Romney was, and sound bytes do less than nothing to Putin. But, at least in this scenario I do think Obama’s reaction makes sense. He’s reacting to prevent a massacre of Yazidis and a full invasion of Kurdish Iraq which has 80,000 Peshmerga who have almost no ammunition. That’s a fight worth using our air power, and it’s one of the few situations where a lot of bombs really _can_ achieve something. It can’t get rid of ISIS, and it can’t stabilize Iraq, but it absolutely can make ISIS cease its invasion of Kurdish Iraq. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Get out and\* stay out.\* > > Which is what every other country in the world is doing. Maybe they know something we don’t. This is a dumb position. Bombing Iraq isn’t like bombing Libya, where we knew it would allow rebels to win but without any certainty as to what form of government they would form. We have repeatedly protected the Kurds in Northern Iraq, and it’s **worked**. They largely are only still present in Northern Iraq because we’ve consistently protected them from genocide. Your stupid and cruel position that somehow it’s “entanglement” to drop bombs that we’ve already paid for anyway to protect an ethnic minority that we’ve protected with air power _since the 90s_ makes no sense to me. Protecting the Kurds in no way requires us to get involved on the ground or in the quagmire going on in the rest of Iraq. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Why? Are we a vassal state of Iraq, that we should jump when they command it? > > Frankly, I prefer not to rush too quickly into war. One of the few good arguments against involvement in Iraq is even Obama who wanted to be totally removed from Iraq was willing to sign a BSA with Maliki’s government that would have essentially put us on the hook for their long term protection. Maliki wanted to be Iran’s puppet and Isalmic Superman so he thumbed his nose at the United States. That should have consequences, and I’d be okay with not helping Maliki. In fact, if I felt that Obama was bombing ISIS to protect the Maliki government I would oppose it. But (as one of his biggest critics on this forum), I think he’s doing it stop a genocide and an invasion of Kurdish Iraq. Those are things worth doing, and they _actually can work_. If we can stop the actual Iraqi Army under Saddam Hussein from massacring all the Kurds, I see no compelling argument that makes any sense (other than from those who believe, for some reason, military power can never work ever no matter what no sir) that would suggest we couldn’t stop ISIS from doing the same. > [@Bozuit](#): > > Kurdistan is armed, capable and willing to fight back. The rest of Iraq, not so much. Airstrikes are support, not the full package - you need people on the ground or they’re not going to be worth much. The Kurds are useful to the US and have been their allies in the past. The rest of Iraq is probably just a liability, and Maliki is probably on the way out. Unfortunately they are hardly armed, but the Peshmerga will not retreat and are all loyal to the idea of the Kurdish Autonomous region. The Iraqi military is solely sectarian and even tribal within that sectarian, and are not willing to die for anything else, and many of them are poorly trained on top of that. Iraq sent new recruits into battle a few weeks ago who had trained with wooden assault rifles and had never fired a weapon prior to being in combat. But yes, we do need to help the Kurds. And **airstrikes can help them** , it’s a very obvious situation in which air power will be significant. Air power can absolutely turn the tide in a conventional battle. The battle lines between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban had been static for like 10 years, when we first started heavy airstrikes the Taliban immediately started losing ground. The Taliban wouldn’t have lost Kabul and the majority of the country without an American ground presence, but airstrikes immediately changed a static front that hadn’t moved in a long time, and one in which the Taliban really had the upper hand. They were not in danger of falling back at all prior to our airstrikes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/176 "2014-08-10T15:45:16Z")
**Marty** , if you think Obama is doing the right thing here, its OK to just say so. Doesn’t go on your permanent record, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/177 "2014-08-10T16:26:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > **This is a dumb position.** Bombing Iraq isn’t like bombing Libya, where we knew it would allow rebels to win but without any certainty as to what form of government they would form. We have repeatedly protected the Kurds in Northern Iraq, and it’s **worked**. They largely are only still present in Northern Iraq because we’ve consistently protected them from genocide. Your stupid and cruel position that somehow it’s “entanglement” to drop bombs that we’ve already paid for anyway to protect an ethnic minority that we’ve protected with air power _since the 90s_ makes no sense to me. Emphasis added. And yet it’s the policy of every country on earth except the US. Could be that we are the only smart ones in the world, but that is unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/178 "2014-08-10T16:37:23Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > When did this thread become about The Prague Spring? Because that’s about the last time I can think of this happening. I most certainly hope you are not trying to refer to Saddam Hussein as a Soviet-imposed dictator, which you appear to be doing, because that’s just entering an entirely new universe of stupid. The only thing that kept that man in power was his enormous arsenal of T-72 tanks and Mig fighters. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/179 "2014-08-10T16:45:23Z")
Oddly enough, he also kept Iraq from falling apart. Granted, many of his methods were utterly deplorable but by removing him the result is crumbling chaos and a failed state. How is Iraq better off after being “liberated” by the US? The US invasion _destroyed_ Iraq as a viable nation. I’m starting to think the only “solution” is to split it in three: Sunni, Shi’ite, and Kurd. Of course, the fact the Shi’ites will want to join with Iran, the Kurds will either want their own nation or to incorporate parts of Turkey (maybe - not clear that would actually occur) and the Sunnis might well align with ISIS at this point will have everyone shitting bricks. If Saddam had been left alone there would still be much suckitude in Iraq but the nation itself would be stable and ISIS would have slammed into a viable military the moment they tried to cross the Syrian border. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073/180 "2014-08-10T17:00:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m starting to think the only “solution” is to split it in three: Sunni, Shi’ite, and Kurd. Of course, the fact the Shi’ites will want to join with Iran, the Kurds will either want their own nation or to incorporate parts of Turkey (maybe - not clear that would actually occur) and the Sunnis might well align with ISIS at this point will have everyone shitting bricks. Except the population isn’t so easily divided, and the area that is mainly Sunni has little or no oil. There would still be war over exactly where to draw the lines. That is not to say that, in the end, partition is NOT going to happen. But better to let it happen organically, by the Iraqis themselves rather than an outside power imposing its will on the area. > [@](#): > > If Saddam had been left alone there would still be much suckitude in Iraq but the nation itself would be stable and ISIS would have slammed into a viable military the moment they tried to cross the Syrian border. Well, the Syrian army are not patsies, and ISIL is doing a good job at fighting them. One big difference would be that the Sunni tribes would have no reason to side with ISIL if Saddam were still in Power. OTOH, the Kurds would, although It’s unclear to that they Kurds would want to ally with Islamists at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/isis-youre-going-down/695073.md?page=10)