# Islam and Christianity Share a Violent Flaw **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2002, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177 "2002-12-12T02:45:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/1 "2002-12-12T02:45:20Z")
Islam and Christianity share a flaw that causes violence in this world. That flaw is that in both of these worldviews, there is no room for the unbeliever. It is not legitimate to be a non-Christian or Non-Muslim. The only purpose that non-believers can serve is to be converted. Short of converting, there is no place for them in the world. Christianity and Islam look down on countries that practice other religions, and because these countries are “lost”, almost any degree of violence is considered acceptable in the quest to “save them” In some cases, this is straighforward. For example, many Christians will overlook Israel’s violence because they believe that the creation of Israel will trigger Jesus’s return. Most of the time it is more symbolic- like our insistance that we are “saving” Muslim women from the veil. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/2 "2002-12-12T02:48:45Z")
I pressed “submit” before I was finished! So the quest for more and more believers, combined with an intolerance/disregard for people of other faiths, causes Islamic and Christian countries to act in violent, colonialist ways towards other nations. Christian and Muslim nations are incapable of peace. ---
**Author:** ![FireWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@FireWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FireWitch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/3 "2002-12-12T03:28:16Z")
Sven, you could not be more accurate. When you base a country with all of it’s inherent diversity, on one specific religion what you have is a violent intolerance for those who do not believe. Were it not for the burden of political correctness, (which I am generally against) America would bear a sideways resemblance to a cross between 1940’s Germany and the American South in that same era. If that sounds extreme, it should, because without a balance of liberalism and conservatism, without a balance of left and right, we would be mired in the same issues that face soverign countries all over the world, and especially the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![Cholo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Cholo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cholo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/4 "2002-12-12T04:04:22Z")
even sven, I take exception to your broad statement about Christianity. You stated Christianity will “almost any degree of violence is considered acceptable in the quest to “save them”” is completely off the mark. Jesus Christ did not **ever** lead by example in any shape or form condoning any violence. Any so called “Christian” (that you may have used in your example) who feels that violence gets them anywhere…_especially to save the lost_…is not a Christian in the true sense of the Word. This in no way shape or form is being like-minded with Jesus Christ. I can’t speak for the Islamic religion…but Christ did not come to earth to have his apostles spread a message regarding violence. His apostles were left to spread the gospel (good news) about the grace of God to everyone (Jews and Gentiles). Anyone can be saved by believing and accepting. How this was translated into the acceptance of violence is beyond me. Christians backing Israel as a Jewish state isn’t the same as condoning violence. Beware of a broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/5 "2002-12-12T04:14:36Z")
Actually, the main flaw that Islam and Christianity share is that they both are practiced by people. And people tend to distort the message of their religion into whatever message suits their needs at the time. Hinduism, Judaism, Shintoism, whatever all share this same flaw. So does Communism, capitalism, and just about every other ideology and belief system. Sad, but true. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/6 "2002-12-12T04:36:52Z")
I believe that the OP is seriously mistaken in his assertion that there’s no room for the unbeliever in either Christianity or Islam. If he means that the unbeliever can’t join, then that applies to any number of other groupings–religious or otherwise–which have membership requirements. If he means that they don’t tolerate unbelievers, well I need a valid cite for that mal…er, assertion. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/7 "2002-12-12T05:14:08Z")
note: **even sven** is a female. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/8 "2002-12-12T05:30:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*If he means that they don’t tolerate unbelievers, well I need a valid cite for that mal…er, assertion. \*\* You need a cite for the fact that Christains look at non-believers as lesser than themselves? You don’t know that if you aren’t a Christain that you will go to Hell? Do you want this cite from Falwell, Swaggart, Robertson or Graham? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/9 "2002-12-12T05:38:15Z")
\*\*Even Sven wrote: So the quest for more and more believers, combined with an intolerance/disregard for people of other faiths, causes Islamic and Christian countries to act in violent, colonialist ways towards other nations.\*\* I disagree. Is it the religion itself or the _interpretation_ of that religion by some of its followers? Very big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/10 "2002-12-12T05:41:15Z")
How about a cite from **Jesus** or even **Polycarp**? ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/11 "2002-12-12T05:59:22Z")
Ideologies not based on respect for different beliefs all have a distinct violent streak. Even the ones that do, as some would argue that Christianity or even Islam does, can be twisted. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/12 "2002-12-12T06:08:34Z")
Let’s look at how different religions look at non-believers. In Judaism, non-believers are kind of lucky, because they don’t have to uphold all the laws. All they have to do follow a few easy laws, and it is all good. It is perfectly acceptable to be a non-Jew. There is still a place for you. In Hinduism, your kind of unlucky if you arn’t a believer because you don’t have a chance at Nirvana this time around. But eventually you’ll be reincarnated as a Hindu and get your chance. Once again, it’s okay to be a non believer. There is still a place for you in the world. The major religions other than Islam and Christianity do not normally proselytize. But what about non-believers in Christianity and Islam? Nothing. There is no place for the unconverted, except to be converted. There is no acceptable role to play except for “Christian” or “Muslim”. It’s not okay to be “Hindu” or “Jewish”. That means your going to hell. There is no place for you. There is no way to practice your religion and still be considered anything other than “lost” at best, “in league with the devil” at worst. This is a fundamental idea that sets Islam and Christianity apart as religions. All other major religions have a role that non-believers play, that allows them a legitimate place on this Earth without converting. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/13 "2002-12-12T06:29:18Z")
Sven, I always find it interesting how some people can tell religious people what their religion “really” believes. Very odd sort of behavior. How many Christians really believe that all Jews are going to hell? Sure, Jack Chick, that’s one. Maybe Bob Jones, that’s two. I would imagine that if you took a survey of Christians, you’d find that only a minority believe Jews are going to hell. Which blows your whole argument. You tell Christians that they believe in something that is unacceptable to you. But most don’t actually believe what you accuse them of believing. So that leaves you…where? Another thing. The idea that Christianity and Islam are the only religions that have practiced religious intolerance or believe in proselytizing is laughable. Study history. You do remember why Christianity was outlawed in the Roman empire, right? You do remember religious believers locked up in Russia and China? Haven’t you seen Hare Krishnas at the airport? Aren’t they proselytizing Hindus? Ah, kids today… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/14 "2002-12-12T06:48:19Z")
sven: You are aware, are you not, that merely repeating your earlier assertion is not a cite? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/15 "2002-12-12T06:50:56Z")
What svennie is objecting to is that the discrimination is built in in the case of C and I. I think. OOC, is there scriptural support for people who aren’t Christian/Muslim getting into Heaven/Paradise? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/16 "2002-12-12T08:45:02Z")
**Humans** share a violent flaw in that they tend to think that their own view is superior to the views of others. Some humans are prepared to resort to violence in order to propagate their views. Some humans are Christians. Some humans are Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/17 "2002-12-12T11:17:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > What svennie is objecting to is that the discrimination is built in in the case of C and I. I think. Well, that would be irrelevant, wouldn’t it? > [@](#): > > OOC, is there scriptural support for people who aren’t Christian/Muslim getting into Heaven/Paradise? In other words, “Is there a way to get the benefits of membership without actually being a member?” Again: irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/18 "2002-12-12T11:20:18Z")
p.s. That’s a really generous and incorrect reading of what sven actually typed. Let me quote it here for you: > [@](#): > > It is not legitimate to be a non-Christian or Non-Muslim. The only purpose that non-believers can serve is to be converted. Short of converting, there is no place for them in the world. Christianity and Islam look down on countries that practice other religions, and because these countries are “lost”, almost any degree of violence is considered acceptable in the quest to “save them” sven made the assertion. Let’s see provide support for it other than merely repeating the assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/19 "2002-12-12T12:02:08Z")
Even Sven wrote: > [@](#): > > It is not legitimate to be a non-Christian or Non-Muslim. When Jesus met the Roman centurion — a pagan — He turned to everyone present, and declared, “I have not seen faith like this in all of Israel.” There is a vast difference between Christianity the Body Politic and Christianity the Body of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177/20 "2002-12-13T18:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\ ***Humans** share a violent flaw in that they tend to think that their own view is superior to the views of others. > Some humans are prepared to resort to violence in order to propagate their views. > Some humans are Christians. > Some humans are Muslims. \*\* Damn, and I thought the answer was 42. Better watch out for the Vogon Constructor Fleet. Well done Mangetout for getting to the heart of the problem. Cheers, Keithy [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-christianity-share-a-violent-flaw/142177.md?page=2)