# Islam and Empathy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489 "2014-05-28T19:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/41 "2014-05-30T03:42:06Z")
[quote=“SandMan1, post:26, topic:689489”] I don’t know if most Muslims hate Americans, but many Muslims tend to support ideas that are against American ideals. [Opinions polls carried out by British Media](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html) have shattered the myth that only a minority of Muslims are extremists. [LIST] [li]20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 London bombers[/li][li]Forty per cent of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41 per cent opposed it.[/li][/QUOTE] I’m rather loathe to dip my oar in this thread, but I’ll merely note that your link actually undercuts your claims about British Muslims being radicals. To your first point, here’s what the Toryagraph actually said. > [@](#): > > The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth **have sympathy with the “feelings and motives” of the suicide bombers** who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although **99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity** I notice you completely ignored the fact that according to your source 99% of all British Muslims opposed the atrocity which hardly seem consistent with your claim about how dangerous and radicalized British Muslims are. As for the fact that 20% had sympathy with the “feelings and motives” of the suicide bombers, I can certainly understand why many people, particularly British citizens effected by the bombing would be outraged by that, but keep in mind that having sympathy with the “feelings and motives” of people who’ve committed violent acts is hardly the same as condoning such actions. Lots of people strongly opposed racism in the US and sympathized very much with the feelings and motives of the Black Panther Party, but that certainly doesn’t mean they supported Eldridge Cleaver when he deliberately kidnapped and raped a number of white women because he believed it was “an insurrectionary act”. Similarly, lots of people sympathized with the goals of either the ANC or the IRA without supporting the actions taken by guerrillas of such groups that have been reasonably called terrorism. Finally, what were the motivations of the Irgun when they blew up the King David hotel and killed vastly more civilians than the 7/7 bombers. The answer of course is that they were Zionists, like the vast majority of American and British Jews then and now. Did that mean that most British and American Jews or even Israeli ones(who would eventually elect the leader PM) for that matter support the bombing? Of course not. Now, the 7/7 bombers were motivated by the fact that they opposed the invasion of Iraq by the UK and the US. Lots of people can sympathize with such feelings without supporting what they did. As for the fact that “41% of all British Muslims” supported imposing Sharia in parts of the UK, again that’s a really vague statement which can mean a lot of different things. Different Muslims have different ideas on what is and isn’t Sharia. I know a lot of people think that most Muslim countries are theocracies, but of the 60 plus Muslim countries only about three(Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran) could be called theocracies with perhaps one or two more. In most of the MENA though there is some merging of government and religion which for the most part means some vague phrase in the Constitution like “all laws herein are inspired by the Hoy Quran”(from Ba’athist Syria) or having marriage and family law handled by religious courts(which is the case in that famous Jihadist state Israel). Now personally, I rather that not be the case in Israel or Morocco, but just because 41% of all British Muslims want Sharia in parts of the UK it doesn’t mean they want adulterers stoned to death(and only a handful of Muslim countries do have things like that). I think the best comparison might be objecting to a separation of Church and State. The vast majority of European countries don’t have separation of Church and State the way the US, Turkey, and France does, but that hardly means the UK is a Christian version of Iran. Now just as opposition to separation of Church and State can mean supporting having a government like the UK without becoming a theocracy, supporting some sharia law in parts of the UK can mean wanting to be more like Israel(which does practice Sharia law) rather than becoming like Afghanistan under the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/42 "2014-05-30T03:49:21Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > If 40% of the population in _city ABC_ were murderers and rapists … would you call them a minority? Yes. Because that’s what the word “minority” _means_. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/43 "2014-05-30T13:10:00Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > [Horseshit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program). The US did not supply Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons. Iraq made its own chemical weapons by buying the equipment to manufacture them; the equipment itself is dual use in that it has a legitimate use in the chemical industry, not just in the manufacture of chemical weapons. It’s hard to claim to have been unaware of the intended use though, and this resulted in three convictions for violating export laws - in Germany. 52% of the equipment used in Iraq’s chemical weapons programs came from Germany, 21% from France, and remainder from a wide variety of countries. The US hardly did much to support Saddam Hussein; it never supplied Iraq with weapons (much less chemical weapons) during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq’s primary weapons suppliers were in rough order the USSR, China and France. I will find you a citation today that shows that the US helped supply Saddam Hussein in the 1980s in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/44 "2014-05-30T14:34:24Z")
A woman was just sentenced to 100 lashings and death by stoning for claiming to be a Christian after being raised from birth as a Christian. And we have people on this board saying Christianity is just as bad as Islam by referencing genocides from centuries ago. It’s like…“knock knock”…reality is at the door. Care to let him in? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/45 "2014-05-30T14:44:24Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > A woman was just sentenced to 100 lashings and death by stoning for claiming to be a Christian after being raised from birth as a Christian. > > And we have people on this board saying Christianity is just as bad as Islam by referencing genocides from centuries ago. > > It’s like…“knock knock”…reality is at the door. Care to let him in? Read much news from CAR? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/46 "2014-05-30T14:44:33Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Like I said, you won’t get me to defend other religions. > > But to strengthen my argument about Islam, consider this: > > When British India partitioned into majority Hindu India and majority Muslim Pakistan there were about 10-15% minorities in each country. Today, India has increased it’s share of Muslims, while in Pakistan, the Hindu minority is down to 1%. > > Why the difference? The minorities were either forcefully converted or killed. So, in this direct comparison between Hindus and Muslims of the same race, culture, etc. We see than one religion was more prone to violence than the other. Sure, both countries have had problems, but to equate the two would be **laughable** by any standards. > > Whether Christians were violent 100 years ago or Zoroastrians were violent 1000 years ago is irrelevant! We are comparing religions as they stand today. That’s not a “direct comparison” at all. Pakistan was always intended to be a Muslim country. India was always going to be a secular state. Beyond that, you totally made up the part about the minorities being “forcibly converted or killed.” I don’t know where you got those figures but they are parroted on numerous anti-muslim websites despite having no apparent basis in fact. Hindus make up approximately 5.5% of the Pakistani population today. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/47 "2014-05-30T16:08:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Against these claims, I will refer to the various polls I cited in an earlier discussion. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17148755&highlight=limitations#post17148755](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17148755&highlight=limitations#post17148755) > Now your next sentence is sufficiently accurate, although when claiming to know the “TRUE” beliefs, it would seem that you have cherry picked your data. You are right. I should not have used the words “TRUE beliefs”. > [@](#): > > I would note the similarities in questions and answers provided by Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe and North America in the polls I cited, (where the Muslims often appear to be much more pacific and often more patriotic than the Christians or secularists among whom they live). I read the numerous polls you cited. But I am not sure how they are important in this debate. Whether Muslims vs non-Muslims are more patriotic does not matter here. For the lack of a better example: Thieves vs non-theives could be more patriotic. So, in an unrelated survey question, Muslims could very well display desirable characteristics. But that does not some how counter what they say in questions about jihad, suicide bombing, sharia law, etc. > [@](#): > > As to seeking Sharia, while there are Fundamentalists and even neo-Caliphatists, one will more often find that there is a group of Muslims who would like to see Sharia used for civil cases involving family law I find no comfort in this even if I agree with what you say here. Family Law under sharia includes things that are horrendous to say the least. Take the sharia law of [honor killings in Pakistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing_in_Pakistan) (allowed under their law) for an example. A form of gender-based violence, an honour killing is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community. The killing is viewed as a way to restore the reputation and honour of the family. With over 4,000 cases were reported in Pakistan between 1998 and 2004, and many more around the Muslim World … are you telling me that Muslims being polled do not know that honor killings and many such similar barbaric laws are also a part of family sharia law? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/48 "2014-05-30T16:11:56Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > You are right. I should not have used the words “TRUE beliefs”. > I read the numerous polls you cited. But I am not sure how they are important in this debate. Whether Muslims vs non-Muslims are more patriotic does not matter here. For the lack of a better example: Thieves vs non-theives could be more patriotic. > > So, in an unrelated survey question, Muslims could very well display desirable characteristics. But that does not some how counter what they say in questions about jihad, suicide bombing, sharia law, etc. > I find no comfort in this even if I agree with what you say here. Family Law under sharia includes things that are horrendous to say the least. Take the sharia law of [honor killings in Pakistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing_in_Pakistan) (allowed under their law) for an example. > > A form of gender-based violence, an honour killing is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community. The killing is viewed as a way to restore the reputation and honour of the family. > > With over 4,000 cases were reported in Pakistan between 1998 and 2004, and many more around the Muslim World … are you telling me that Muslims being polled do not know that honor killings and many such similar barbaric laws are also a part of family sharia law? Interpretations of sharia vary widely among Muslims. There’s no evidence that any significant number of American Muslims who follow sharia are in favor of things like honor killings. Beliefs about sharia (and about everything) are as diverse among Muslims as they are among Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/49 "2014-05-30T16:18:27Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Take the sharia law of [honor killings in Pakistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing_in_Pakistan) (allowed under their law) for an example. No, in fact the cite that you yourself provide suggests that > [@](#): > > Honour killings are supposed to be prosecuted as ordinary murder, but in practice, police and prosecutors often ignore it So they are not allowed under their law. The problem is that the country is a sinking shithole with multiple competing sources of authority and violence. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/50 "2014-05-30T16:26:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not a “direct comparison” at all. Pakistan was always intended to be a Muslim country. India was always going to be a secular state. How do you know that? Even before the respective countries were formed they were **meant to be** secular or non-secular? You know nothing about the history of the partition. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, you totally made up the part about the minorities being “forcibly converted or killed.” I don’t know where you got those figures but they are parroted on numerous anti-muslim websites despite having no apparent basis in fact. Hindus make up approximately 5.5% of the Pakistani population today. So, now you are calling me a liar? Clearly, your numbers are all wrong. Hindus constitute [1.7% of the Pakistani Population](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan#cite_note-3). And re: minorities in Pakistan –\> [Pakistan tops worst list for religious freedom](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/30/pakistan-tops-worst-list-for-religious-freedom/) [A US government-appointed panel urged Washington on Tuesday to step up pressure on Pakistan over religious freedom, alleging that risks to its minorities have reached a crisis level.](http://www.dawn.com/news/795082/us-report-speaks-of-crisis-for-minorities) A BBC FAQ notes that “Beginning in 1980, a slew of clauses was added to the chapter of religious offences in the Pakistan Penal Code. These clauses can be grouped into two categories - the anti-Ahmadi laws and the blasphemy laws.” The BBC notes that three is widespread popular support for the these laws in Pakistan, and that two prominent critics of these laws, Salman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti, have been assassinated in 2011. Regarding the blasphemy laws, the BBC observes that: “Hundreds of Christians are among the accused - at least 12 of them were given the death sentence for blaspheming against the Prophet.” ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/51 "2014-05-30T16:48:34Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > No, in fact the cite that you yourself provide suggests that > > So they are not allowed under their law. The problem is that the country is a sinking shithole with multiple competing sources of authority and violence. I am no expert in Pakistani Law, so I don’t know how exactly it works. But it is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. Clearly, there is some level of support for honor killings in society as made evident by the prevalence and lack of action by several levels of government. According to a [Pakistan-newpaper Article from 2004](http://www.irinnews.org/report/26440/pakistan-new-honour-killing-law-does-not-go-far-enough-rights-groups) Under existing laws, the perpetrators of honour killings often escape with reduced sentences if they can prove they were “provoked” into committing the crime. “We did it with utmost sincerity, dedication and intense deliberations involving all concerned segments of society,” said Nilofar Bakhtiar, an adviser to the prime minister, in her remarks on the floor of the lower house after the bill was passed. So even the lawmakers cannot pass something that outright out-laws honor killings. Why? Because there is some level of support for this and other Islamic laws. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/52 "2014-05-30T16:50:52Z")
> [@](#): > > How do you know that? Because the proponents of partition [said so](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Pakistan#Jinnah.27s_address). [Several times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectives_Resolution). [QUOTE=Muhammad Ali Jinnah] The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. [/QUOTE] You are right about the Hindu population of Pakistan, but your underlying argument is still clearly flawed. You didn’t even try to take into account the inclusion of Bangladesh/East Pakistan in the current and historic figures. Or cite them, except for the current population. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/53 "2014-05-30T17:08:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because the proponents of partition [said so](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Pakistan#Jinnah.27s_address). [Several times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectives_Resolution). > > You are right about the Hindu population of Pakistan, but your underlying argument is still clearly flawed. You didn’t even try to take into account the inclusion of Bangladesh/East Pakistan in the current and historic figures. Or cite them, except for the current population. Gross Oversimplification. [An Islamic or secular Pakistan?](http://www.dw.de/an-islamic-or-secular-pakistan/a-17325395) > [@](#): > > Did Pakistan’s founder Jinnah want to create an Islamic or a secular state? The question divides Pakistanis even after 66 years of their country’s independence. Some say Jinnah was not very clear about it himself. How is my underlying argument flawed? Are you saying that Pakistan has a long clean history on minority rights? After its inception, Pakistan passed many laws (e.g. [Blasphemy Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Pakistan)) that made minorities like Hindus worse-off than 3rd class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/54 "2014-05-30T17:14:56Z")
I’m saying nothing of the sort. I am asking you how you get from “Pakistan has few minority rights” to “this minority is being murdered or converted out of existence.” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/55 "2014-05-30T17:31:30Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I will find you a citation today that shows that the US helped supply Saddam Hussein in the 1980s in this regard. No you won’t. The most you will find is that some US companies sold Iraq dual use equipment that was used in the Iraqi chemical weapons program. The percentage of the Iraqi program coming from US sources was quite small; just over half of it came from Germany and the majority of the rest from other European countries. If you want someone to be pissed off at for Iraqi use of chemical weapons, you can start with [Karl Kolb](http://www.chemeurope.com/en/companies/23772/karl-kolb-gmbh-co-kg.html). The US did not supply Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons. The US did not supply Saddam Hussein with weapons, period. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/56 "2014-05-30T17:37:31Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Read much news from CAR? Do I read much news from the inside of my car? Or do I read much news from the NCUSAR? Or did you mean CAIR? …anyways, reality bites when it conflicts with one’s idealized tendency to equivocate. That stuff just doesn’t happen in the West anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/57 "2014-05-30T17:52:38Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Do I read much news from the inside of my car? > > Or do I read much news from the NCUSAR? > > Or did you mean CAIR? > > …anyways, reality bites when it conflicts with one’s idealized tendency to equivocate. That stuff just doesn’t happen in the West anymore. Behold the [Central African Republic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic). And [some news](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/27/central-african-republic-bangui-mosque-raid-muslims-flee). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/58 "2014-05-30T17:54:09Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > I find no comfort in this even if I agree with what you say here. Family Law under sharia includes things that are horrendous to say the least. Take the sharia law of [honor killings in Pakistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing_in_Pakistan) (allowed under their law) for an example. Honor killings are not permitted under the various forms of Sharia. (There are more than one.) Honor killings are “permitted” (by the society simply failing to enforce their own laws) in societies that permit honor killings whether they are Muslim, Christians, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever. > [@SandMan1](#): > > With over 4,000 cases were reported in Pakistan between 1998 and 2004, and many more around the Muslim World … are you telling me that Muslims being polled do not know that honor killings and many such similar barbaric laws are also a part of family sharia law? Show the words in Sharia laws that permit this. You are confusing cultural acceptance with law. Are you saying that there is a Hindu law that permits honor killings? Honor killings are prevalent in India among Hindus as much as Muslims. Are you saying that honor killings in Serbia or Sicily (thankfully reduced in recent years) are part of Christian law? You have taken a cultural practice that occurs in a number of societies, ignored all the societies that do not happen to be Muslim, ignored all the Muslim societies that do not practice it, and then tried to tie the practice to a “law” when it is not found there. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/59 "2014-05-30T18:09:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Honor killings are not permitted under the various forms of Sharia. (There are more than one.) Honor killings are “permitted” (by the society simply failing to enforce their own laws) in societies that permit honor killings whether they are Muslim, Christians, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever. > > Show the words in Sharia laws that permit this. You are confusing cultural acceptance with law. Are you saying that there is a Hindu law that permits honor killings? Honor killings are prevalent in India among Hindus as much as Muslims. Are you saying that honor killings in Serbia or Sicily (thankfully reduced in recent years) are part of Christian law? > > You have taken a cultural practice that occurs in a number of societies, ignored all the societies that do not happen to be Muslim, ignored all the Muslim societies that do not practice it, and then tried to tie the practice to a “law” when it is not found there. Are you a top-Muslim cleric with millions of followers? Why should I believe your interpretation of Islamic law over that of top clerics and millions of Muslims? Everything you said here is bogus. Regarding Islamic Law in Pakistan: The offence for which the death penalty is most frequently imposed in Pakistan is murder. Those sections of the Pakistan Penal Code which relate to the offences of murder and manslaughter were replaced in 1990 by the [Qisas and Diyat Ordinance](http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a9a10.html) which redefines the offence and its punishment in Islamic terms. More laws: [http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258\_nij9789004172258\_i-408](http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258_nij9789004172258_i-408) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/60 "2014-05-30T18:12:22Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Are you a top-Muslim cleric with millions of followers? Why should I believe your interpretation of Islamic law over that of top clerics and millions of Muslims? Everything you said here is bogus. Regarding Islamic Law in Pakistan: > > The offence for which the death penalty is most frequently imposed in Pakistan is murder. Those sections of the Pakistan Penal Code which relate to the offences of murder and manslaughter were replaced in 1990 by the [Qisas and Diyat Ordinance](http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a9a10.html) which redefines the offence and its punishment in Islamic terms. > > More laws: > [http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258\_nij9789004172258\_i-408](http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258_nij9789004172258_i-408) Where does your cite say anything about honor killings? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489.md?page=4)