# Islam and Empathy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489 "2014-05-28T19:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/61 "2014-05-30T18:26:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Where does your cite say anything about honor killings? Are you kidding? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/62 "2014-05-30T18:35:33Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Are you a top-Muslim cleric with millions of followers? Why should I believe your interpretation of Islamic law over that of top clerics and millions of Muslims? Everything you said here is bogus. Regarding Islamic Law in Pakistan: > > The offence for which the death penalty is most frequently imposed in Pakistan is murder. Those sections of the Pakistan Penal Code which relate to the offences of murder and manslaughter were replaced in 1990 by the [Qisas and Diyat Ordinance](http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a9a10.html) which redefines the offence and its punishment in Islamic terms. > > More laws: > [http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258\_nij9789004172258\_i-408](http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258_nij9789004172258_i-408) Do you seriously not get that there are different beliefs about sharia among different muslims? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/63 "2014-05-30T18:36:30Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Do they ever realize that Western fear / anger towards Islam is rooted almost entirely in incidents of terrorism and violence perpetrated in Islam’s name? The counter to this is; do you realize how much fear and anger towards the United States is rooted almost entirely in incidents of violence taken in the name of America and its interests? I realize it’s not easily seen from within, but the perception of the United States in other countries, especially those that aren’t close American allies, is that’s it’s an aggressive, murderously militaristic country. Even if we limit ourselves just to living memory - say, since the Second World War - the USA has invaded or bombed a LOT of places. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/64 "2014-05-30T18:40:22Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Are you a top-Muslim cleric with millions of followers? Why should I believe your interpretation of Islamic law over that of top clerics and millions of Muslims? Everything you said here is bogus. Regarding Islamic Law in Pakistan: > > The offence for which the death penalty is most frequently imposed in Pakistan is murder. Those sections of the Pakistan Penal Code which relate to the offences of murder and manslaughter were replaced in 1990 by the [Qisas and Diyat Ordinance](http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a9a10.html) which redefines the offence and its punishment in Islamic terms. > > More laws: > [http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258\_nij9789004172258\_i-408](http://nijhoffonline.nl/book?id=nij9789004172258_nij9789004172258_i-408) You do not appear to be a scholar of Islaic jurisprudence, either. In fact, you point to laws against murder and its punishment that discuss equal retribution, but nothing you have posted and nothing to which you linked makes any provision for “honor killing.” If you have read any of the stories on honor killing, (that do appear with distressing frequency), you should be able to come up with at least one citation where a murderer appealed to Sharia as a defense. Again, you are confusing a cultural practice with a law and now you appear to be trying to throw up a smokescreen to avoid addressing the claim you made. Note that Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philipines, and other countries with Muslim majorities or large Muslim minorities are not noted for the frequency of honor killings. It is a curse that extends from the Maghreb across the Middle East to India, that is cultural in nature (regardless of religion) and is not based in Sharia law. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/65 "2014-05-30T18:40:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Where does your cite say anything about honor killings? [More information:](http://www.cmi.no/publications/2004/wp/wp2004-1.pdf) As part of the islamization of the penal code of 1860, the sections dealing with physical injury, manslaughter and murder were revised in 1990 with the promulgation of the “Qisas and Diyat Ordinance” subsequently passed by parliament in 1997 as the “Qisas and Diyat Act” (“Retribution and Compensation Act”).23 The amendment had far-reaching consequences for the legal prosecution of homicide in general and \*\*honour killings in particular. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/66 "2014-05-30T18:41:45Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Are you kidding? Quote the citation rather than ducking behind a nonsense question. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/67 "2014-05-30T18:49:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you seriously not get that there are different beliefs about sharia among different muslims? Even if I do … is there any way of knowing which version is correct? Especially when you have important Ayatollahs issuing fatwas on people for drawing cartoons, making movies or writing books. Which version is the correct one? ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/68 "2014-05-30T18:52:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Quote the citation rather than ducking behind a nonsense question. See #65. I named the law, talked about it’s consequences, etc. … if you are still not convinced, the least you could do is Google the law some more before asking me to provide citations that satisfy you. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/69 "2014-05-30T19:01:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You do not appear to be a scholar of Islaic jurisprudence, either. In fact, you point to laws against murder and its punishment that discuss equal retribution, but nothing you have posted and nothing to which you linked makes any provision for “honor killing.” What do you say about top muslim leaders including Ayatollahs with millions of followers who issued a fatwah against Salman Rushdie based on Blasphemy laws? So, in this case, sharia allows murder? > [@](#): > > If you have read any of the stories on honor killing, (that do appear with distressing frequency), you should be able to come up with at least one citation where a murderer appealed to Sharia as a defense. You are partly correct. Politicians do tend to denounce honor killing. But in the case of Pakistan, they have not been able to pass laws that deal with this issue. Pakistan operates on Islamic Law, and honor killings are tied into the laws that I have quoted many time already. > [@](#): > > Again, you are confusing a cultural practice with a law and now you appear to be trying to throw up a smokescreen to avoid addressing the claim you made. Note that Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philipines, and other countries with Muslim majorities or large Muslim minorities are not noted for the frequency of honor killings. It is a curse that extends from the Maghreb across the Middle East to India, that is cultural in nature (regardless of religion) and is not based in Sharia law. I think the honor killings topic has run it’s course. What claim did I make that I am not addressing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/70 "2014-05-30T19:01:59Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Even if I do … is there any way of knowing which version is correct? Especially when you have important Ayatollahs issuing fatwas on people for drawing cartoons, making movies or writing books. Which version is the correct one? Is there any way of knowing which version of Christianity is correct? Or which version of Judaism? Yes, some muslims advocate for and do bad things. But not most muslims… not by far. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/71 "2014-05-30T19:03:01Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > What do you say about top muslim leaders including Ayatollahs with millions of followers who issued a fatwah against Salman Rushdie based on Blasphemy laws? So, in this case, sharia allows murder? Some interpretations of sharia allow murder. Not all. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/72 "2014-05-30T19:05:10Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > See #65. > > I named the law, talked about it’s consequences, etc. … if you are still not convinced, the least you could do is Google the law some more before asking me to provide citations that satisfy you. Nothing in your link provides a citation where Sharia promotes or encourages or even accepts honor killings. What you have provided simply supports my point that cultural mores result in local interpretations of civil or criminal law that excuse honor killings without actually pointing to Sharia, itself. For example: [Honour killing outside the world of Islam](http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/outside.html) > [@](#): > > Many of the countries most notorious for honour killing are Arab or Muslim countries; Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, Jordan and Palestine. This feeds a general impression that honour killing is somehow related to Islam, which feeds into a general xenophobia against Muslims; and the phenomenon is used by racists and xenophobes as yet another stick with which to beat Muslims, attempting to characterise these murders as a ‘pious act’, approved by Islam. > > There is, however, no single text in the Quran that justifies these crimes. By contrast, in the Bible, Numbers 26:6-8 show God approving Phineas’s public murder of a couple who marry outside tribal boundaries. Most Muslims reject honour killing as a brutal distortion of Islam; discussions of this in terms of the spiritual texts of Islam can be found at the Muslim Women’s League, by Dr Mohammed Fadel and at alt.muslim, amongst many others. Many Muslim scholars and clerics have condemned such crimes as a vile and backward distortion of their faith. > > _Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93) The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments. Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee_ Now, do you have an actual citation to what you consider Sharia that promotes or accepts honor killing? Or are you going to simply continue to promote ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/73 "2014-05-30T19:09:27Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > [More information:](http://www.cmi.no/publications/2004/wp/wp2004-1.pdf) > As part of the islamization of the penal code of 1860, the sections dealing with physical injury, manslaughter and murder were revised in 1990 with the promulgation of the “Qisas and Diyat Ordinance” subsequently passed by parliament in 1997 as the “Qisas and Diyat Act” (“Retribution and Compensation Act”).23 The amendment had far-reaching consequences for the legal prosecution of homicide in general and \*\*honour killings in particular. \*\* From the third page of your cite: > [@](#): > > In general, attempts to circumscribe honour killings by attributing it to particular geographical regions (“Middle East”), cultures (“Kurdish” or “Pakistani” culture), faiths (“Islam”) or societies (“tribal”, “Islamic”) have failed because honour killings transcend such one - dimensional attributes. Also: > [@](#): > > In 1996 Pakistan ratified the U.N. Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW). Under CEDAW, Pakistan assumed the obligation to protect women from sexual and other forms of gender > > - based violence perpetrated by state agents and private actors alike. The current > president, Pervez Musharraf, has condemned honour killings, instructed courts to > investigate incidents as premeditated murder and promised to punish offenders. So, according to the cite _you_ provided, honor killings are both illegal in Pakistan, _and_ not inherently linked to the Islamic religion. Do you have any more cites that completely destroy your own argument? It makes things a _lot_ easier for the rest of us when you do our work for us. As to the two sentences you lifted, without context, from a thirty page report - the bit you quoted doesn’t describe legalized honor killings, it describes flaws in the Pakistani justice system that makes prosecuting honor killings (which, again, are illegal in Pakistan per your own cite) much more difficult. This is, obviously, a serious problem, one that’s exacerbated by both an ingrained sexism in Pakistani culture, and a damaging conflation of religion and government. It is, however, not a situation that’s going to be improved by misstating the actual problem, or assigning to the Pakistani legal system elements that do not, in fact, exist. While I’m at it, why are you so fixated on Pakistan? Less than 2% of the Muslims in the world live there. Even if every thing you’ve said about Pakistani justice were true, so what? How does that prove anything about Islam as a whole? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/74 "2014-05-30T19:15:51Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > > [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > > > > > The [US has made a habit of supporting authoritarian regimes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_of_authoritarian_regimes) (Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Hosni Mubarak, etc…) much to the detriment of the citizens of the countries. They even went so far as to supply chemical weapons to Saddam that were used to gas his own people and people in Iran during the Iran Iraq war. > > > > [Horseshit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program). The US did not supply Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons. Iraq made its own chemical weapons by buying the equipment to manufacture them; the equipment itself is dual use in that it has a legitimate use in the chemical industry, not just in the manufacture of chemical weapons. It’s hard to claim to have been unaware of the intended use though, and this resulted in three convictions for violating export laws - in Germany. 52% of the equipment used in Iraq’s chemical weapons programs came from Germany, 21% from France, and remainder from a wide variety of countries. The US hardly did much to support Saddam Hussein; it never supplied Iraq with weapons (much less chemical weapons) during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq’s primary weapons suppliers were in rough order the USSR, China and France. > > I will find you a citation today that shows that the US helped supply Saddam Hussein in the 1980s in this regard. Crap, I am going to just concede the point so consider it withdrawn. Back in the run up to the Iraq war there were some debates on this board on US complicity with them having weapons of mass destruction and somebody posted a link to congressional testimony showing that we had sent them nerve gas chemical precursors. I have conducted a dozen or so searches for both the thread and the congressional testimony and found zip. My Google-fu is low today. Whatever, I was being a bit hyperbolic as the OP was ridiculous IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/75 "2014-05-30T19:23:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, according to the cite _you_ provided, honor killings are both illegal in Pakistan, _and_ not inherently linked to the Islamic religion. Do you have any more cites that completely destroy your own argument? It makes things a _lot_ easier for the rest of us when you do our work for us. How does it destroy my argument? There have been thousands of honor killings that have gone un-punished. How could that have happened so easily? Every cite I have provided says that Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, passed in Pakistan, and based on Islamic Law ( because Pakistan is governed on Islamic Law) allow honor killings. They have tried to repeal this law but have failed. > [@](#): > > As to the two sentences you lifted, without context, from a thirty page report - the bit you quoted doesn’t describe legalized honor killings, it describes flaws in the Pakistani justice system that makes prosecuting honor killings (which, again, are illegal in Pakistan per your own cite) much more difficult. It is illegal yet allowed under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, and very difficult to prosecute. Seems like you find this a little hard to understand. Keep in mind that the end result is thousands of honor killings that are not prosecuted. > [@](#): > > While I’m at it, why are you so fixated on Pakistan? Less than 2% of the Muslims in the world live there. Even if every thing you’ve said about Pakistani justice were true, so what? How does that prove anything about Islam as a whole? I am not. I merely pointed about a few things about Pakistan, an Islamic country and was attacked from all directions. Even you, find it hard to understand that … at best, honor killings are loosely allowed in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/76 "2014-05-30T19:28:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Now, do you have an actual citation to what you consider Sharia that promotes or accepts honor killing? Or are you going to simply continue to promote ignorance? I have provided many already. Time to move off honor killings. Since you seem to know a lot about Sharia, can you tell me if Sharia allows murder for Blasphemy? The Ayatollahs think so … ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/77 "2014-05-30T19:29:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some interpretations of sharia allow murder. Not all. What percentage allow murder? How many interpretations are there? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/78 "2014-05-30T19:32:13Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > It is illegal yet allowed under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, and very difficult to prosecute. Seems like you find this a little hard to understand. Keep in mind that the end result is thousands of honor killings that are not prosecuted. No. It is illegal, but cultural factors impede its prosecution. Nothing in Qisas and Diyat permit the killing of one person to satisfy honor. Even the examples you cited were those of changes to the execution of a sentence for a murder based on a system of “equal” response, not the exculpation of a murder for reasons of “honor.” However, honor killing is still not supported by Sharia based on all your evidence and is contradicted by everyone else’s evidence. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/79 "2014-05-30T19:35:08Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > I have provided many already. Time to move off honor killings. No. you have thrown up bullshit and misinterpreted citations to support your error. Now you want to “move off” honor killings because your error has been demonstrated. Instead, I would conclude that since you got so much wrong on this point, we may safely ignore any future errors you post regarding Sharia (or Islam). ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/80 "2014-05-30T19:35:38Z")
Moving off Pakistan and honor killings … What do Muslims in UK really think about murder and Islam? [Killing for religion is justified, say third of Muslim students.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/2461830/Killing-for-religion-is-justified-say-third-of-Muslim-students.html) Where do these ideas come from? Especially in the Muslims living in the Western World? The report’s authors found that Islamic societies on campus, operating under the umbrella of the Federation of Student Islamic Societies, exert a strong influence on many of Britain’s 90,000 Muslim students. A quarter of them belong to Islamic societies and their views are often more extreme. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489.md?page=5)