# Islam and Empathy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489 "2014-05-28T19:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/81 "2014-05-30T19:36:12Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > How does it destroy my argument? By stating that things are precisely the opposite of how you’ve described them. > [@](#): > > There have been thousands of honor killings that have gone un-punished. How could that have happened so easily? Because there are fundamental flaws in the Pakistani justice system. That’s a far cry from “honor killings are legal!” And an even further cry from, “Honor killings are a part of Sharia law!” > [@](#): > > Every cite I have provided says that Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, passed in Pakistan, and based on Islamic Law ( because Pakistan is governed on Islamic Law) allow honor killings. They have tried to repeal this law but have failed. Yes, that ordinance is based on Islamic law. You seem to think that, if you can show that something is Islamic, that means that you have demonstrated that it’s bad. Unfortunately, while you have proved the (completely unchallenged) point that Qisas and Diyat Ordinance is Islamic in nature, you have utterly failed to show that honor killings are 1) legal is Pakistan, 2) part of Sharia law, or 3) bear any particular relationship with Islam as a whole. On the contrary, the cites that you, yourself, have offered have consistently disagreed with the position you are attempting to argue. > [@](#): > > It is illegal yet allowed under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, and very difficult to prosecute. Seems like you find this a little hard to understand. I’m not sure why you think that, given that I made exactly that statement in my last post. > [@](#): > > Keep in mind that the end result is thousands of honor killings that are not prosecuted. Keep in mind that your claim was that honor killings are an inherent part of Sharia law, and legal in Pakistan. > [@](#): > > I am not. I merely pointed about a few things about Pakistan, an Islamic country and was attacked from all directions. You’ll find that happens a lot around here when you post things that aren’t true. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/82 "2014-05-30T19:37:57Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > What percentage allow murder? About 14% of muslims internationally believe violence against civilians is [sometimes justified](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism). > [@](#): > > How many interpretations are there? Cite? [Eight or nine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab), depending on who you ask. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/83 "2014-05-30T19:44:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. you have thrown up bullshit and misinterpreted citations to support your error. > > Now you want to “move off” honor killings because your error has been demonstrated. > > Instead, I would conclude that since you got so much wrong on this point, we may safely ignore any future errors you post regarding Sharia (or Islam). So according to you, Pakistan, an Islamic Republic, just made-up honor killings? I was trying to avoid quoting passages … > [@](#): > > retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/84 "2014-05-30T19:52:17Z")
Do you, perhaps, have something a bit more credible than the results of a survey by the Centre for Social Cohesion? Do you have a link to the actual survey, with the questions asked and how they were actually answered? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/85 "2014-05-30T19:54:41Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > So according to you, Pakistan, an Islamic Republic, just made-up honor killings? > > I was trying to avoid quoting passages … No. Pakistan has a very serious issue regarding honor killings. On the other hand, you keep avoiding the fact that Indonesia, with far more Muslims, does not, and you are still pretending that it is a “Muslim” issue. You also made the claim that it was supported by Sharia and have failed to point out any evidence to support that error. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/86 "2014-05-30T19:55:09Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > What do you say about top muslim leaders including Ayatollahs with millions of followers who issued a fatwah against Salman Rushdie based on Blasphemy laws? So, in this case, sharia allows murder? This must be about the millionth post where you keep referring to “Ayatollahs” to show what you claim is what true Sharia is. Respectfully, you’re not inspiring confidence in your knowledge or understanding of Islam. “Ayatollahs” are a rather recent innovation and are only followed by the Shia so your suggestion that “most Muslins” care what they think would be like me making judgements about Anglicans based on the claims of some Eastern Orthodox Archbishops. Moreover, since the vast majority of Pakistanis, which is the country you’re focused on, are Sunnis, it’s especially weird. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/87 "2014-05-30T19:58:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. Pakistan has a very serious issue regarding honor killings. > > On the other hand, you keep avoiding the fact that Indonesia, with far more Muslims, does not, and you are still pretending that it is a “Muslim” issue. > > You also made the claim that it was supported by Sharia and have failed to point out any evidence to support that error. Not to mention that honor killings in the area long predate Islam and are practiced by many non-Muslims, such as the Yazdis. It’s far more of a tribal thing which is part of the reason they’re far more common amongst the Kurds, who generally speaking aren’t radicalized than other groups of Muslims who tend to be more radical. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/88 "2014-05-30T20:06:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’ll find that happens a lot around here when you post things that aren’t true. Well, the burden of proof has been placed on me, which is fine … but most are just trying to negate any evidence I provide by putting things out of context. Simply put, **Qisas and Diyat Ordinance** allows the family to control the consequences or punishment of the crime. You just refuse to acknowledge the Islamic nature of this law! Under Islamic Sharia, punishment for murder, homicide or infliction of injury can either be in the form of [qisas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas) (equal punishment for the crime committed) or [diyat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyat) (financial compensation). But, you can waive punishment (qisa) in Pakistan, and just pay some money (diyat) and not be prosecuted. Therefore, you could kill someone, pay some money and not be prosecuted. Hence honor killings in many cases are not illegal! If you still want to refute this … I cannot help you. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/89 "2014-05-30T20:13:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do you, perhaps, have something a bit more credible than the results of a survey by the Centre for Social Cohesion? Do you have a link to the actual survey, with the questions asked and how they were actually answered? Why? You suspect something wrong with the methodology? All top British newspapers including the Telegraph and [Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/27/islam.highereducation) published the results. So, I am fairly sure that the results are legitimate. Or are you questioning the poll only because it does not suit your narrative? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/90 "2014-05-30T20:16:23Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Well, the burden of proof has been placed on me, which is fine … but most are just trying to negate any evidence I provide by putting things out of context. > > Simply put, **Qisas and Diyat Ordinance** allows the family to control the consequences or punishment of the crime. You just refuse to acknowledge the Islamic nature of this law! Under Islamic Sharia, punishment for murder, homicide or infliction of injury can either be in the form of [qisas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas) (equal punishment for the crime committed) or [diyat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyat) (financial compensation). But, you can waive punishment (qisa) in Pakistan, and just pay some money (diyat) and not be prosecuted. Therefore, you could kill someone, pay some money and not be prosecuted. Hence honor killings in many cases are not illegal! > > If you still want to refute this … I cannot help you. We don’t have to refute this because it is nothing more than a casuistic effort to make a false point in error. And you still fail to link this to an actual text in Sharia that permits, much less encourages, honor killing. You still have failed to explain why honor killing occurs often in a specific region of the world, (and among other religions in the same regions), but does not occur in other regions of the world where the prevailing religion is Islam. You are trying to show that Islam has a problem by cherry-picking cultural issues and incorrectly tying them to Islam. You are failing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/91 "2014-05-30T20:18:07Z")
The CSC was formed explicitly to combat a perceived threat of Islamic fundamentalism. You might as well cite Phillip Morris’ findings on tobacco dangers. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/92 "2014-05-30T20:19:50Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > Why? You suspect something wrong with the methodology? All top British newspapers including the Telegraph and [Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/27/islam.highereducation) published the results. So, I am fairly sure that the results are legitimate. > > Or are you questioning the poll only because it does not suit your narrative? I question the poll because it was carried out by a group with a noted hostility to Islam and Muslims without any supporting evidence for how it was carried out. It was reported by various media because news agencies like to publish controversial matters that will attract readers without any concern for the accuracy of the stories. Show me the same numbers from Gallup or Pew and we can consider them. ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/93 "2014-05-30T20:24:11Z")
For those that wanted information from other Islamic Countries. Views on punishment for adulterers and apostates, from other Islamic Countries based on the [Pew’s poll of the world’s Muslims](http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/01/nine-things-youll-learn-from-pews-poll-of-the-worlds-muslims/) A majority of Muslims in several countries think adulterers and apostates should be put to death According to the poll, 86 percent of Muslims in Pakistan, 84 percent in Afghanistan, 81 percent in the Palestinian territories, 80 percent in Egypt, 65 percent in Jordan, 57 percent in Iraq and 54 percent in Malaysia and Bangladesh favor stoning as a lethal punishment for adultery. A majority of Muslims in several countries also support the death penalty for Muslims who convert away from Islam, including in Afghanistan (79 percent), Egypt (88 percent), Pakistan (75 percent), the Palestinian territories (62 percent), Jordan (83 percent) and Malaysia (58 percent). ---
**Author:** ![SandMan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SandMan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandMan1)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/94 "2014-05-30T20:36:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On the other hand, you keep avoiding the fact that Indonesia, with far more Muslims, does not, and you are still pretending that it is a “Muslim” issue. In Indonesia, a country with the largest number of Muslims, [15% of Indonesian Muslims support suicide bombing in the defense of Islam](http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/95 "2014-05-30T20:37:50Z")
OK. I have looked for information on theCSC “poll.” The first thing that stands out is that it was an on-line poll, not an actual poll that looked for a statistically significant sampling. Only an idiot (or a demagogue) would ever use an on-line poll, since there is no way to judge the sample or to ensure that the sample was not skewed in some manner. There is no control for sample size or sample neutrality. The questions were vaguely worded with no explanation, meaning that each person polled might have responded to a different perceived question. Then, for a group of 90,000 Muslim students, they were only able to get 632 replies. The whole range of problems are documented at this site (.pdf): [http://fosis.org.uk/resources/resource-pool/sac/31-fosis-critique-of-csc-islam-on-campus-report/file](http://fosis.org.uk/resources/resource-pool/sac/31-fosis-critique-of-csc-islam-on-campus-report/file) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/96 "2014-05-30T20:39:00Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > For those that wanted information from other Islamic Countries. Views on punishment for adulterers and apostates, from other Islamic Countries based on the [Pew’s poll of the world’s Muslims](http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/01/nine-things-youll-learn-from-pews-poll-of-the-worlds-muslims/) The same poll states that “A much more moderate brand of Islam predominates in Southern-Eastern Europe and Central Asia”; “nine percent of Turkey’s Muslims think stoning should be a punishment for adultery and eight percent think that those who convert away Islam should be put to death”; “Muslims are more concerned about Muslim extremism than Christian extremism”; and "Most Muslims say they prefer democracy ". So yeah: if your view of Islam is a particular set of countries on a specific set of issues, you have an argument. If you look at the broader picture, examining countries from Pakistan to Turkey on issues from adultery to democracy? Not so much. > [@SandMan1](#): > > In Indonesia, a country with the largest number of Muslims, [15% of Indonesian Muslims support suicide bombing in the defense of Islam](http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/). **tomndebb** was not talking about suicide bombing in the post that you cite. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/97 "2014-05-30T20:46:31Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > In Indonesia, a country with the largest number of Muslims, [15% of Indonesian Muslims support suicide bombing in the defense of Islam](http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/). Which has what to do with your claims for Sharia law? Dodge and weave. Every time you are shot down, you try to find a different issue about which to complain. And the question was whether suicide bombings were justified often (4%) or sometimes (11%) which is hardly a valid claim that one in six Indonesian Muslims are out promoting suicide bombings. What is the context in which the question was asked? What did the respondents consider “defense” of Islam? Since you have shifted to Indonesia, (because I pointed out that your “honor killing” claims failed there), then you should actually look at the history of the country rather than posting in a vacuum. From the 1960s through the 2000s the Indonesian government was actively hostile to Islam, despite it being the primary religion of the people, and it stands to reason that more Muslims in that country will look at more extreme measures to defend it. What are the numbers who support suicide bombing in France or Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/98 "2014-05-30T21:30:49Z")
> [@SandMan1](#): > > What do Muslims in UK really think about murder and Islam? [Killing for religion is justified, say third of Muslim students.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/2461830/Killing-for-religion-is-justified-say-third-of-Muslim-students.html) > > Where do these ideas come from? People have enthusiastically killed for religion as long as it’s been around. That’s not something special to Islam. The “ideas come from” the nature of religion itself. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/99 "2014-05-30T22:16:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > About 14% of muslims internationally believe violence against civilians is [sometimes justified](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism). That sounds like a very low number. What percentage of the citizens of Allied countries supported the area bombing of German and Japanese cities? I bet it was more than 14%. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489/100 "2014-05-30T22:21:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That sounds like a very low number. > > What percentage of the citizens of Allied countries supported the area bombing of German and Japanese cities? I bet it was more than 14%. [56% of Americans approve of drone strikes](http://www.people-press.org/2013/02/11/continued-support-for-u-s-drone-strikes/), despite the fact that they routinely kill civilians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-and-empathy/689489.md?page=6)