# Islam in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396 "2017-07-02T22:56:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/41 "2017-07-03T19:40:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s what you see when a group faces massive discrimination. Saw it (still do, to a large extent) in the US with black folks. In neither case is it helpful to blame the victims of the discrimination. Jesus, wept, I really don’t think there is any parallel with the experience of blacks in the USA. I’d respectfully suggest you are not well informed. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/42 "2017-07-03T19:41:44Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > … and anyone who leaves the faith is frowned upon. This reads like Monty Python line.: No! no! Not the … FROWN!! ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/43 "2017-07-03T19:47:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m sorry, I struggled to get past the second paragraph, where Ayaan started accusing the “left today” of “a growing tendency to prioritize group rights over individual rights”. > > And then there was the claim that: > > “Excusing men of color, Muslims, immigrants or men living in non-Western societies for bad behavior toward women is an expression of the bigotry of low expectations.” > > I’m “progressive.” I don’t excuse men of colour, Muslims, immigrants or men living in non-Western society for bad behaviour. These are strawman attacks. If the article does get better then please feel free to summarise. But I’m not going to read that nonsense. They may or may not be spouting stuff that is islamophobic. But they most certainly are spouting a whole lot of bullshit. This to me was the paragraph that was most relevant; quote from Nomani. Hopefully I am not violating board rules with such a large block of copy&paste. Thank you for your important work in the community. The tightrope that you walk is one that too many people today have internalized because of a very strategic campaign by Islamist governments, including Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to attack anyone who criticizes their ultra-orthodox Islamist interpretations of Islam. We call this network the “honor brigade.” Just as you are vigilant about “Islamophobic fundamentalist Christian terrorists,” we must safeguard against fundamentalist Muslim terrorists, for the sake of human rights and women’s rights, L.G.B.T.Q. rights and other basic principles of human dignity. As you likely know, Muslims around the world — and others, of course, too — face “violent havoc” from Islamic extremism. We have to speak bluntly about the threat of Islamist interpretation to defeat it. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > No, but we’d be discussing people’s actions and judging them based on their consequences, legality, etc. There’s nothing wrong with that. In this hypothetical, if the Mormon Nawaz stood up and said “This isn’t enough, there’s a problem with Mormonism itself and we need to reform Mormonism”, I would expect the following: > > 1. People agreeing with him and buying his books. > 2. Mormons would cease to trust him because he doesn’t seem to be talking to them, but to this other audience. > 3. Nothing much useful accomplished from anything he said or did. > > We already have the tools to counter terrorism. > > But I don’t know what to do with “The problem is Islam itself - it’s a political ideology and a religion”. Whether the statement is true, I don’t know what there is to be gained by spending a lot of time discussing it. Thank you for this analysis. But two questions. 1. Why do Muslims think Nawaz or Ali aren’t speaking to them? They both were raised Muslim, and Nawaz still identifies as Muslim. 2. Regarding your last paragraph, I think that is a very interesting dilemma. If this problem exists and we acknowledge it, what can we do about it? Maybe nothing. Maybe it’s really not a problem if people hold extremist views (as long as they don’t get violent) and live in parallel societies. Putting the extremism aside, I guess my main concern with this system is that the children don’t get exposed to as many things as non-Muslim British children do. The girls may not be allowed to participate in sports, or go on field trips with the class, etc. But in the US we allow parents a pretty free hand when it comes to raising their children by the tenets of their religion–we would definitely let anyone in this country pull a child from PE or refuse to give permission for a field trip. Is that the right attitude? Should we focus on extremist Christian homeschoolers and Haredi Jews in our own country first? I don’t know. > [@Gyrate](#): > > There is. The important thing is to distinguish between the way in which a religion is used (or misused) and the fundamental tenets of the religion itself. > Firstly: there are an awful lot of qualifiers being used here in order to extrapolate an argument that there is a “possibility” that “large number of Muslims” “may” hold extremist beliefs, followed by questions which assume that all those things are actually true. Yes, if the vast majority of UK Muslims hold the sort of extremist beliefs you mention, there is a problem. But they don’t. > > Second, the ghettoization of recent immigrant populations is a millennia-old practice which not only tends to resolve itself eventually but does it more quickly if and when those groups are able to assimilate themselves into the larger population without negative pressure from the population into which they would assimilate. I deliberately used a lot of qualifiers because I wanted to couch my discussion in language that is as politic as possible. Is there data to show how many Muslims in the UK hold extremist beliefs? I’ll go hunting. Of note, I would point out that the second generation of Muslim immigrants (born/raised in UK) seem to have more resistance to assimilation and more extremist beliefs than their parents. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Worshiping God is not the problem here. > > The problem is when an immigrant based minority group does not fit with the cultural values of the nation it immigrates to. > > Such is Islam. > > If you practice Sharia law, women are not equal, gay’s/lesbians are shunned, and can be put to death in some other governments, and anyone who leaves the faith is frowned upon. > There are over 80 courts of Sharia Law in the UK, mostly family variety and growing **Silver lining** , I would just like to point out that “sharia law” can mean many different things to many different people, and not all of the manifestations are as cruel as the ones you mention. From my understanding, the UK sharia courts are more like arbitrators than bona fide courts of law. > [@Chimera](#): > > And what then would we have to say about ‘white flight’ from neighborhoods when blacks started moving in? That the whites were insular and preferred to live among their own kind? Yes ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/44 "2017-07-03T19:56:12Z")
A very quick search brought up the following, in regards to the prevalence of this issue: > **[UK: What British Muslims Really Think](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey)** > > The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody... (Disclaimers 1) I did not read the actual study, just the summary 2) It seems to be a right-leaning publication, judging by the websites sidebar, **there is no link to the actual study itself, it may be the same as the study below** > [@](#): > > The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists. > > “[W]e have to adopt a far more muscular approach to integration than ever, replacing the failed policy of multiculturalism… Britain’s liberal Muslims are crying out for this challenge to be confronted. … There is a life-and-death struggle for the soul of British Islam – and this is not a battle that the rest of us can afford to sit out. We need to take sides… We have ‘understood’ too much, and challenged too little – and in doing so are in danger of sacrificing a generation of young British people to values that are antithetical to the beliefs of most of us, including many Muslims.” — Trevor Phillips, former head of Britain’s Equality and Human Rights Commission. > > The survey does show that 88% of British Muslims believe Britain is a good place for Muslims to live. According to Philips, this is because the tolerance they enjoy in Britain allows them to do whatever they want. The following is another survey which was conducted by a “center right” (according to business insider) institution: [Policy Exchange Poll of Muslim Attitudes and Beliefs on Who Planned 9/11 - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/policy-exchange-survey-muslim-attitudes-beliefs-911-september-11-2016-12) > [@](#): > > Only 4% of British Muslims can correctly identify who was responsible for the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center, according to a survey of conducted by centre-right think tank Policy Exchange, a non-profit education think tank. > > The survey — of 3,000 British Muslims from a variety of towns — also said: > > 43% support the introduction of some forms of Sharia law. > 44% believe schools should be able to insist on “a hijab or niqab” as part of the uniform. > 15% believe art or music should not be taught in school (artistic representations of humans are regarded as idolatry in some forms of Islamic belief). > 10% would not ban tutoring that “promotes extreme views or is deemed incompatible with fundamental British values.” > But the biggest point survey results show that more UK Muslims believe Jews perpetrated the 9/11 attacks than believe Al Qaeda planned it I do not know the methodologies of these surveys and cannot vouch for the validity of the results. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/45 "2017-07-03T20:12:36Z")
> [@](#): > > 43% support the introduction of some forms of Sharia law. > 44% believe schools should be able to insist on “a hijab or niqab” as part of the uniform. > 15% believe art or music should not be taught in school (artistic representations of humans are regarded as idolatry in some forms of Islamic belief). > 10% would not ban tutoring that “promotes extreme views or is deemed incompatible with fundamental British values.” So then, all of these are minority positions among UK Muslims. 15% of American Christians believe the Earth was created whole less than 10,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/46 "2017-07-03T20:29:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So then, all of these are minority positions among UK Muslims. > > 15% of American Christians believe the Earth was created whole less than 10,000 years ago. Yeah but these are large minorities . . . These don’t appear to be “fringe” values. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/47 "2017-07-03T22:43:00Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Worshiping God is not the problem here. > > The problem is when an immigrant based minority group does not fit with the cultural values of the nation it immigrates to. > > Such is Islam. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, that isn’t the question. > > In areas of high Pakistani Muslim populations, there is no integration, no shared commonality; that particular group of Muslims is inclined to create a separate, wholly distinct society. This is the nonsense promoted by Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, the English Defense League, etc. It is not true. Recent Pakistani immigrants to Britain have, indeed, assimilated more slowly than some others. There are a number of reasons for this: a primarily agricultural community immigrating to an industrialized country, a community that is a bit more clannish than Western society, and a more active persecution of the group. These very closely echo the problems that have impeded the assimilation of the Romani in Europe and blacks in the U.S. However, a blanket claim that “Islam” is the problem is without foundation as demonstrated by the assimilation of many Muslims across Europe and Muslims who are not among the Pakistani immigrants in Britain. Similarly, claims that Pakistani immigrants are “inclined” to create a wholly separate society have more to do with Islamophobic xenophobia than an actual examination of the phenomena. The same accusation is hurled against Jews on many occasions. It is an accusation that has only recently begun to stop being leveled at blacks in the U.S.–an accusation that generally tried to ignore Jim Crow and housing red-lining (and open hostility) that prevented blacks from migrating out of their communities in order to assimilate with the larger society. Generally no “immigrant based minority group” fits in “with the cultural values of the nation it immigrates to.” (See the Ben Franklin rants against Germans from around 1750.) Falsely blaming the immigrants by claiming that _they don’t want to assimilate_ is also one of the standard claims of anti-immigrant rhetoric. I make no claim that there are no problems with cultural clashes resulting from immigration. I do note that the same discomfort and fear resulting in the same, tired, accusations, occurs with every large immigrant wave and close inspection reveals that they are not true. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/48 "2017-07-03T22:52:21Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Jesus, wept, I really don’t think there is any parallel with the experience of blacks in the USA. > > I’d respectfully suggest you are not well informed. You have to be kidding. There are multiple parallels between the treatment (and the results of such treatment), of blacks and immigrants, regardless whether the immigrants were of the same religion as the native country or of a different religion. Housing discrimination, the creation of ghettos by various laws, job discrimination, selective mistreatment by law enforcement, shunning by the surrounding majority, etc. It is not **Human Action** demonstrating a lack of being well-informed. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/49 "2017-07-03T23:36:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is the nonsense promoted by Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, the English Defense League, etc. It is not true. > > Recent Pakistani immigrants to Britain have, indeed, assimilated more slowly than some others. There are a number of reasons for this: a primarily agricultural community immigrating to an industrialized country, a community that is a bit more clannish than Western society, and a more active persecution of the group. These very closely echo the problems that have impeded the assimilation of the Romani in Europe and blacks in the U.S. > > However, a blanket claim that “Islam” is the problem is without foundation as demonstrated by the assimilation of many Muslims across Europe and Muslims who are not among the Pakistani immigrants in Britain. > > Similarly, claims that Pakistani immigrants are “inclined” to create a wholly separate society have more to do with Islamophobic xenophobia than an actual examination of the phenomena. In general I am inclined to agree with you. However, one notable point here is that we have a “control” for our social science population. Indians immigrants to the U.K. are doing better in a number of metrics, including education and income. Hindu Indians do somewhat better than Muslim Indians. Broadly, Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis share a similar culture (although there are a lot of differences as well)–they shared a country until a few decades ago and there are still lots of similarities in terms of dress, language, cuisine, etc. The main difference is religion. Of course this is hardly “proof” that the issue is religion–maybe the Indians who immigrate are better educated or had broader social networks, I’m sure the bias against Muslims in hiring isn’t helping. But it is a data point. I am on my phone so can’t link to studies right now but am happy to do so later if anyone wants ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/50 "2017-07-04T00:12:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You have to be kidding. > > There are multiple parallels between the treatment (and the results of such treatment), of blacks and immigrants, regardless whether the immigrants were of the same religion as the native country or of a different religion. > Housing discrimination, the creation of ghettos by various laws, job discrimination, selective mistreatment by law enforcement, shunning by the surrounding majority, etc. It is not **Human Action** demonstrating a lack of being well-informed. Housing discrimination - what are you talking about? Ghettos by virtue of “various” laws? “Shunned”? I wonder if the problem is you think the whole world is as backward, as culturally racist, as institutionally racist, as is the US; that you measure the world by your own parochial experience? When was the last time you visited the UK? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/51 "2017-07-04T00:18:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Recent Pakistani immigrants to Britain have, indeed, assimilated more slowly than some others. There are a number of reasons for this: a primarily agricultural community immigrating to an industrialized country, a community that is a bit more clannish than Western society, and a more active persecution of the group. These very closely echo the problems that have impeded the assimilation of the Romani in Europe and blacks in the U.S. I’m not sure why you are alighting on “recent” Pakistani immigration - unless the Internet led you to Rochdale and other similar towns where particular issues arose concerning vulnerable young women and first generation immigrants. You seem to be conflating and confusing too much. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/52 "2017-07-04T01:29:08Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > No, but we’d be discussing people’s actions and judging them based on their consequences, legality, etc. There’s nothing wrong with that. In this hypothetical, if the Mormon Nawaz stood up and said “This isn’t enough, there’s a problem with Mormonism itself and we need to reform Mormonism”, I would expect the following: > > 1. People agreeing with him and buying his books. > 2. Mormons would cease to trust him because he doesn’t seem to be talking to them, but to this other audience. > 3. Nothing much useful accomplished from anything he said or did. Sorry **Inbred** , I know this is the second time I’m quoting this post but I wanted to once again speak about your point #2. One of the reasons I became so interested in this topic is because a dear friend of mine, more like a sister honestly, is a fairly religious Muslim. She is also one of the most liberal people I know; liberal here can mean having left-wing value or appreciating the inalienable rights and freedoms of individuals–both definitions apply to her. She thinks gay people and women should have the same rights as everyone else, she thinks that every religion is true as long as its followers are compassionate and loving. She and her husband make it a point to live in mixed-income housing (although they could afford not to) and in general work very hard to improve the status of marginalized people in our society. She also gets quite defensive when other people criticize Islam. I asked her why she didn’t like Maajid Nawaz, and she said the following: 1. Her community didn’t like him 2. Right-wing institutions (e.g. Fox News) liked him 3. She got a general sense of Islamophobia from reading some of his work. But she wasn’t able to give me anything more concrete than that. Similarly, I was looking for reactions of various Muslim groups to these criticisms. I found this article: [http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/casey-report-rejected-many-being-one-sideddivisive-1503291563](http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/casey-report-rejected-many-being-one-sideddivisive-1503291563) in which Islamic leaders decried the report because it did not mention the failure of British society to help with integration (and there is some data showing significant bias against Muslims in hiring and in news reporting). But I feel like I never hear Muslim spokespeople say anything like, "Yes, this is a problem in our community, and we are going to look for opportunities to improve this situation, both within and outside of our communities. Maybe these statements are there; if anyone has some I would be very interested in reading them. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/53 "2017-07-04T01:34:43Z")
Also, I will say that there is no doubt at all in my mind that self-promotion is a huge motivator for nawaz, and it seems that he has exaggerated or falsified elements of his story. However, I don’t think that means that his message can’t be useful. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/54 "2017-07-04T02:04:35Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Housing discrimination - what are you talking about? Ghettos by virtue of “various” laws? “Shunned”? > > I wonder if the problem is you think the whole world is as backward, as culturally racist, as institutionally racist, as is the US; that you measure the world by your own parochial experience? > > When was the last time you visited the UK? Do you have an actual point, here? When discussing the issues that arise with cultural conflicts related to immigration, I noted that there was a parallel to the black experience in the U.S. You denied that without providing any substantive rebuttal. The U.S. clearly created ghettos, using various laws (some Federal, some state based, and some local), to limit the places where blacks might live. Jacob Vigdor has, in a couple of studies of Europe, noted that restrictive laws on home ownership by non-citizens plays an important role in preventing immigrants from leaving the rental units where they first landed, denying them home ownership and mobility. Now it is quite possible that Britain is not among the nations that have those restrictive laws. In that case, I am in error regarding the role that laws have played in creating ghettos in Britain. That, however, is different from your simple dismissal when you have not even attempted to understand the point being made. On the other hand, Britain is included among the countries that are guilty of directing students into programs that will provide the least economic benefit to students who are already poor, and recent immigrants are going to make up a very high proportion of such students. (Britain is not as bad as Germany, but it still has problems.) As for shunning, the UK demonstrates the same sort of employment practices as the U.S. in which recognizably “other” people are hired at much lower rates than people of similar educational attainment who are not clearly “other.” I certainly do not regard the U.S. as culturally superior to any other nation when viewing racist behavior, but the EDL is hardly withering away in Britain and a significant amount of the Brexit ad campaigns were directly xenophobic, making your attempt to dismiss my remarks because I come from a racist country silly, at best. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/55 "2017-07-04T08:05:48Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Sorry **Inbred** > She also gets quite defensive when other people criticize Islam. I asked her why she didn’t like Maajid Nawaz, and she said the following: > > 1. Her community didn’t like him > 2. Right-wing institutions (e.g. Fox News) liked him > 3. She got a general sense of Islamophobia from reading some of his work. > > But she wasn’t able to give me anything more concrete than that. . It is always best to read what the person themselves say rather than second-hand criticism from those who prejudge according to what they think they have said. [Here are a summary of his views](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz#Views), I’ve never found his public work departing too much from these. Hardly a rabid right-wing or neo-con in waiting. In fact he has run as a Liberal-Democrat candidate in UK elections, they don’t come any more centrist than that. Moderate and sober, respectful and protective of islam and muslims but critical of any hint of extremism or the fascist tendencies of the ultra-religious. More voices like his are needed from within all faiths. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/56 "2017-07-04T09:06:43Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > If you practice Sharia law, women are not equal, gay’s/lesbians are shunned, and can be put to death in some other governments, and anyone who leaves the faith is frowned upon. > > You must be old then. But we are talking 2017. Islam isn’t for any of what I said above. You don’t have to be that old. You just have to live in certain red states (and probably a few blue ones too). And American evangelicals have been working with anti-gay groups and governments in Africa and Eastern Europe to implement severe penalties for being homosexual including long imprisonments (although implementation of the death penalty in Uganda was headed off, fortunately). In Georgia (the country) there have been mobs led by the leaders of the Orthodox Church attacking (including stoning) homosexuals. Russia has been engaged in a government-led pogram against homosexuals for years at the behest of Vladimir Putin with the support of the Church. And that’s not even getting into some of the worst religion-driven excesses going on in other parts of Africa. So let’s not handwave away Christian behaviors here. Yes, the vast majority of Christians in the world are decent people who just want to get on with their lives in peace. But so are the vast majority of Muslims. Attempting to tar over a billion people with the sins of the worst of them does neither them nor you any service. > [@Gestalt](#): > > I deliberately used a lot of qualifiers because I wanted to couch my discussion in language that is as politic as possible. Is there data to show how many Muslims in the UK hold extremist beliefs? I’ll go hunting. > > Of note, I would point out that the second generation of Muslim immigrants (born/raised in UK) seem to have more resistance to assimilation and more extremist beliefs than their parents. Have you got data for _that_? You seem to be making a lot of assertions without actual data. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/57 "2017-07-04T15:58:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is always best to read what the person themselves say rather than second-hand criticism from those who prejudge according to what they think they have said. Sorry, I should have made it clear–I have read several of maajid nawaz’s pieces, including his autobiography. Which is why I was flummoxed when my friend professed to dislike him. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Have you got data for _that_? You seem to be making a lot of assertions without actual data. Yes, I have been deliberately not providing cites as I stated in my first post, but will give cites when asked. In this case, it seems I overstated my claim. In terms of primary sources, this is the best that I could find: > **[Is Violent Radicalisation Associated with Poverty, Migration, Poor...](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0090718)** > > Background Doctors, lawyers and criminal justice agencies need methods to assess vulnerability to violent radicalization. In synergy, public health interventions aim to prevent the emergence of risk behaviours as well as prevent and treat new illness... which notes that youth is a risk factor for radical beliefs. and this: [http://www.portmir.org.uk/assets/pdfs/second-and-third-generation-muslims-in-britain-a-socially-excluded-group.pdf](http://www.portmir.org.uk/assets/pdfs/second-and-third-generation-muslims-in-britain-a-socially-excluded-group.pdf) (warning pdf) which states this: > [@](#): > > Some academics have observed a change within the British Muslim society that > became apparent in the 1980s. Whereas a previous generation had pursued ideals > of integration, some young Muslims suddenly wanted to assert their distinctive > character by identifying with the global Ummah of Islam without giving any primary sources for that particular statement I suspect the whole idea that second generation pakistanis are less integrated and more radicalized than the first generation is a comment in an article I read somewhere without any data to back it up, so I’m willing to let the integration aspect of it drop. Although there does seem to be evidence that radicalization (which I admit is different from extremist beliefs, which was the phrasing I used) is more common in young people than in older people. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Recent Pakistani immigrants to Britain have, indeed, assimilated more slowly than some others. There are a number of reasons for this: a primarily agricultural community immigrating to an industrialized country, a community that is a bit more clannish than Western society, and a more active persecution of the group. These very closely echo the problems that have impeded the assimilation of the Romani in Europe and blacks in the U.S. > > However, a blanket claim that “Islam” is the problem is without foundation as demonstrated by the assimilation of many Muslims across Europe and Muslims who are not among the Pakistani immigrants in Britain. While digging around to find a cite for **gyrate** , I did also find this: [https://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/bisina/JEEA.BPVZ.pdf](https://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/bisina/JEEA.BPVZ.pdf) (warning PDF), a summary of which can be found here: [http://voxeu.org/article/muslim-immigrants-integration-uk](http://voxeu.org/article/muslim-immigrants-integration-uk) noting that there are significant differences between muslim and non-muslim immigrants. > [@](#): > > Most importantly, even after conditioning on the various individual and contextual demographic and socio-economic characteristics discussed previously, the > speed of cultural integration is lower for Muslims than for non-Muslims. Whereas > for non-Muslims, the longer the time spent in the UK, the more attenuated is the > attachment to their culture of origin, for Muslims the number of years since arrival > does not seem to be related to their inclination to assimilate.3 Being born in the UK > is negatively correlated to intensity of religious identity also for Muslims, but the > correlation is more than twice as high for non-Muslims than for Muslims. Furthermore, > keeping constant the time spent in the UK, age at arrival, although not statistically > significant, is negatively correlated with identity for Muslims and positively correlated for non-Muslims. If we interpret this correlation causally, it possibly > indicates that a strong identity is picked up by the Muslims in the UK, rather than > being carried over from personal experiences or memories from the country of > origin.4 This also appears as a specificity of the Muslims’ integration pattern . . . Within each group, second-generation immigrants have a lower probability of > showing a high attachment to their culture of origin over time, but this reduction > is more marked for non-Muslims than for Muslims. More interestingly, years > spent in the UK is negatively associated with the level of religious identity of > non-Muslims, whereas it has virtually no relationship with the Muslims’ identity. > The marginal effects (i.e., changes in the probability of having a strong religious > identity following a one-year increase in the time spent in the UK) decline for > both Muslims and non-Muslims, but the average effect over time is less than > 1% for Muslims and more than 3% for non-Muslims. Figure 1 also shows that, > when the effects of our large set of individual and contextual characteristics have > been accounted for, a Muslim born in the UK and having spent there more than > 50 years has on average the same probability of having a strong religious identity > as a first generation non-Muslim who has been in the UK for less than 20 years. > Second-generation Muslims never achieve the (lower) level of probability of having > a strong religious identity of second-generation non-Muslims at any point > in time. The authors do note that many limitations in their study (one being that the data only goes through the 1990s) and do recommend caution when drawing conclusions from this information given those limitations. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/58 "2017-07-04T18:03:01Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > While digging around to find a cite for **gyrate** , I did also find this: > [https://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/bisina/JEEA.BPVZ.pdf](https://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/bisina/JEEA.BPVZ.pdf) (warning PDF), a summary of which can be found here: > [http://voxeu.org/article/muslim-immigrants-integration-uk](http://voxeu.org/article/muslim-immigrants-integration-uk) > > noting that there are significant differences between muslim and non-muslim immigrants. > > The authors do note that many limitations in their study (one being that the data only goes through the 1990s) and do recommend caution when drawing conclusions from this information given those limitations. The opening paragraphs of that report indicate a problem from the get go. They refer to the Paris riots of 2005 in terms of “Muslim” participation. However, as noted and documented on the SDMB at that time, few of the participants in those riots had any attachment to Islam and the Muslim authorities both decried the violence and disavowed the connection. The origins of those riots was the treatment of second generation immigrants who had already fallen away from their faith, but continued to suffer discrimination because of their perceived heritage. In other words, it was the larger society’s persecution that radicalized those youth. As to the perception that Muslims differ from others in clinging to their religion, I would note that the study’s surveys very much mirror surveys of Catholics in the U.S. up until Catholics became presidents of the U.S. and General Motors, signalling that they had finally been accepted in the U.S. as fellow citizens. Doug Saunders, in his The Myth of the Muslim Tide: Do Immigrants Threaten the West? provides a clear analysis of the xenophobia regarding the treatment of Muslim immigrants along with the parallels to the histories of other immigrant groups, debunking the nonsense of Geller and her cohorts. I also note that the linked survey, itself, explicitly limits itself to religious beliefs, not those of citizenship. > [@](#): > > These results are at odds with those of Manning and Roy (2007) who, using the UK Labour Force Survey in 2001, find “no evidence of a culture clash in general, and none connected with Muslims in particular.” More specifically, Manning and Roy adopt a measure of integration constructed from answers to the question: “What do you consider your national identity to be? Please choose as many or as few as apply.” Using this measure they document that a large fraction of those individual in the sample who are born in Britain actually report a British national identity and that such fraction is larger for third than for second-generation immigrants. The measure of integration adopted in our paper is, however, conceptually distinct, as it is constructed from questions regarding importance of religion, attitude towards inter-marriage, and importance of racial composition in schools. It is very possible that integration in terms of national identity follows a very different pattern than the integration in terms of attitudes towards religion, marriage, and schooling. Consistent with this explanation, Constant et al. (2006) adopt a definition of integration that accounts for several cultural and religious factors, including social interactions, and find significantly different integration patterns for Muslims and Christians in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/59 "2017-07-04T21:24:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Don’t treat it in a special way, just give it the same scrutiny and oppose it with the same force that you would any other belief system. Don’t give bad or hateful ideas or intolerance a free pass just because they come from a religious background. Bigotry against gay people should be challenged whether it comes from the christian right, the catholic faithful, muslims or nazis. Nothing in such a challenge need, or should, violate the constitution. > > In the UK at least I’d expect the government to guard against allowing such ideas to seep into state schools under the guise of religious doctrine. I think the institutional opposition to scary beliefs held by Muslims, or anybody for that matter, is already in place. It’s covered. > [@Gestalt](#): > > Thank you for this analysis. But two questions. > > 1. Why do Muslims think Nawaz or Ali aren’t speaking to them? They both were raised Muslim, and Nawaz still identifies as Muslim. I don’t know, why don’t you ask Muslims? Personally, I wouldn’t think too well of a person who criticized something I believed in while being caught in a huge number of lies concerning their experiences with the thing I believed in. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. Regarding your last paragraph, I think that is a very interesting dilemma. If this problem exists and we acknowledge it, what can we do about it? Maybe nothing. Maybe it’s really not a problem if people hold extremist views (as long as they don’t get violent) and live in parallel societies. > Putting the extremism aside, I guess my main concern with this system is that the children don’t get exposed to as many things as non-Muslim British children do. The girls may not be allowed to participate in sports, or go on field trips with the class, etc. Unfortunately, there’s nothing we can do about it. Sorry. Free people are free to have thoughts we find repugnant. Darn. > [@Gestalt](#): > > Sorry **Inbred** , I know this is the second time I’m quoting this post but I wanted to once again speak about your point #2. One of the reasons I became so interested in this topic is because a dear friend of mine, more like a sister honestly, is a fairly religious Muslim. She is also one of the most liberal people I know; liberal here can mean having left-wing value or appreciating the inalienable rights and freedoms of individuals–both definitions apply to her. She thinks gay people and women should have the same rights as everyone else, she thinks that every religion is true as long as its followers are compassionate and loving. She and her husband make it a point to live in mixed-income housing (although they could afford not to) and in general work very hard to improve the status of marginalized people in our society. > > She also gets quite defensive when other people criticize Islam. I asked her why she didn’t like Maajid Nawaz, and she said the following: > > 1. Her community didn’t like him > 2. Right-wing institutions (e.g. Fox News) liked him > 3. She got a general sense of Islamophobia from reading some of his work. > > But she wasn’t able to give me anything more concrete than that. I find her reasons to be extremely concrete. I would be offended as your friend to find out you had said that about her list of reasons. > [@Gestalt](#): > > Similarly, I was looking for reactions of various Muslim groups to these criticisms. > I found this article: [http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/casey-report-rejected-many-being-one-sideddivisive-1503291563](http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/casey-report-rejected-many-being-one-sideddivisive-1503291563) > > in which Islamic leaders decried the report because it did not mention the failure of British society to help with integration (and there is some data showing significant bias against Muslims in hiring and in news reporting). > But I feel like I never hear Muslim spokespeople say anything like, "Yes, this is a problem in our community, and we are going to look for opportunities to improve this situation, both within and outside of our communities. > > Maybe these statements are there; if anyone has some I would be very interested in reading them. Yup trust is a two-way street. It amazes me there are people so obsessed with the notion that Muslims need to be more willing to have their way of life criticized. What an extraordinary waste of time and energy. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/60 "2017-07-04T21:57:46Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think the institutional opposition to scary beliefs held by Muslims, or anybody for that matter, is already in place. It’s covered. What on earth are you saying here? What institution? what opposition? are you talking about legal sanctions? Are you suggesting that we should not criticise bad ideas at all? Also, I’m confused about your criticism of Maajid Nawaz. Are you saying he’s lied? Strong claims. What are his lies and how do they affect the validity of what he says? I linked to his list of views above,[here they are again.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz#Views) Can you quote me from there (or anywhere) the views that you disagree with or have a problem with? or that are invalidated by other “lies” that he has told (if any) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396.md?page=4)