# Islam in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396 "2017-07-02T22:56:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/81 "2017-07-05T10:10:16Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > That’s not an ad either. The famous “breaking point” ad is clearly xenophobic though. [Brexit adverts - Google Search](https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Brexit+adverts&client=ms-android-cubot&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip6rzk3vHUAhXCL8AKHcmdCXYQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=D62Q7EkkKVD-NM:) > > Tomndebb is definitely right about some Brexit ads being xenophobic, but the claim that foreigners can’t buy property in the UK is simply untrue and I’ve already asked for clarification on the “intentionally misleading poor students” thing and got none. Perhaps someone else can ask? The original claim was that a “significant amount” of the brexit ads were xenophobic. That was clearly not the case. Plus, I don’t agree that an position against unrestricted migration is necessarily “xenophobic” Nor that a position against unrestricted migration is a necessary part of a brexit voter and is absent for the pro-europeans. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/82 "2017-07-05T10:50:24Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > . . . I’ve already asked for clarification on the “intentionally misleading poor students” thing and got none. Perhaps someone else can ask? I do not sit at the computer 24/7. I have just seen your post. I never said that students were being misled. I noted that poor students in Britain are often directed toward courses that will result in lower paying jobs–something that occurs in the U.S., Germany, and other countries, as well. Such behavior is not directed against Muslims, but with a large percentage of Muslims among the poor, that group is affected by such actions, just as blacks in the U.S. have been similarly affected. I do not claim that Britain is “misleading” all Muslims (or all poor kids) into poor paying career paths. I simply noted that the ways that education is run in many countries leads to that result and, in that way, the poor (and Muslim) of Britain parallel the poor (and black) in the U.S. This exchange began with up\_the\_junction claiming that he could see no parallel between the issues of Pakistani immigrants in Britain and the black experience in the U.S. They are not the same and I would not claim that there are the same, but there are parallels. (Even up\_the\_junction’s implication that any problems are due to their own faults closely parallels comments in the U.S. regarding the black experience.) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/83 "2017-07-05T10:51:08Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The original claim was that a “significant amount” of the brexit ads were xenophobic. That was clearly not the case. > Plus, I don’t agree that an position against unrestricted migration is necessarily “xenophobic” Nor that a position against unrestricted migration is a necessary part of a brexit voter and is absent for the pro-europeans. I do think there was a lot of xenophobia in the leave campaign - not from everyone, of course - but actually I’m not 100% sure why it’s supposed to be relevant. The xenophobia was mostly against Eastern Europeans, who are generally not Muslim. Tomndebb, in post 54 you did say that if you were wrong about the property thing, you’d withdraw it, but that kinda means it’s necessary for someone to point out that you’re wrong. Even when that was pointed out you claimed there were property restrictions after all. When talking about problems Muslims face in Britain I’d say it’s better to focus on the actual problems rather than make quite strange and wrong assumptions about anti-Muslim laws. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/84 "2017-07-05T10:59:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not sit at the computer 24/7. I have just seen your post. > > I never said that students were being misled. I noted that poor students in Britain are often directed toward courses that will result in lower paying jobs–something that occurs in the U.S., Germany, and other countries, as well. Such behavior is not directed against Muslims, but with a large percentage of Muslims among the poor, that group is affected by such actions, just as blacks in the U.S. have been similarly affected. > > I do not claim that Britain is “misleading” all Muslims (or all poor kids) into poor paying career paths. I simply noted that the ways that education is run in many countries leads to that result and, in that way, the poor (and Muslim) of Britain parallel the poor (and black) in the U.S. > > This exchange began with up\_the\_junction claiming that he could see no parallel between the issues of Pakistani immigrants in Britain and the black experience in the U.S. They are not the same and I would not claim that there are the same, but there are parallels. (Even up\_the\_junction’s implication that any problems are due to their own faults closely parallels comments in the U.S. regarding the black experience.) I’m sorry, but I’m still baffled. What kinds of courses are you talking about? Do you have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/85 "2017-07-05T11:02:18Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Even when that was pointed out you claimed there were property restrictions after all. No. I did not. up\_the\_junction claimed that Britain could not be discriminating because it followed EC protocols. I simply noted that such an argument was silly, given that other participants in EC standards found ways to violate them. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > When talking about problems Muslims face in Britain I’d say it’s better to focus on the actual problems rather than make quite strange and wrong assumptions about anti-Muslim laws. Having made no claim about anti-Muslim laws in Britain, I would guess that you are inferring things I have not actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/86 "2017-07-05T11:06:42Z")
**Novelty Bobble** , you’ve posted on this board long enough to know nobody is convinced by debate in a day. I think this would be doubly true for a Dagestani bomb maker in an Egyptian prison. To his second lie, he claimed he had given up his extremist views while in prison, but that isn’t the case. He also took credit for “deradicalizing” an anti-Muslim bigot named Tommy Robinson, but it turns out Nawaz was paying him to make that claim. Anyway, I have wasted way too much of my life on Nawaz. He is of little value. I criticized his views in this thread and you are saying I didn’t. That’s fine. I will leave it at that. Regarding our instutions and defense against bad ideas. Yes, we have what we need. If a Muslim wishes to seek political office by supporting various ideas stemming from an extremely conservative view of Islam then they will fail based on the bad ideas. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/87 "2017-07-05T11:10:46Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m sorry, but I’m still baffled. What kinds of courses are you talking about? Do you have a cite? Probably not. It is something I have inferred from several decades of reading about education in different countries–and the similarities in ways in which poor kids are treated. I have read the personal school experiences of people growing up poor in a number of countries–which are often closely parallel–but I do not have a study that indicates that poor kids are being shunted into poor paying jobs. On a quick search, I did find this 😛 > **[Snobbery about vocational education is denying our children opportunities](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/21/snobbery-vocational-academic-education-opportunities-children)** > > Could Michael Gove's Ebacc subjects lead to worse youth unemployment? But it is too recent to be relevant to this discussion and is not actually on point regarding the wealth of the students’ families. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/88 "2017-07-05T11:26:05Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You said Brexit adverts, not opinion pieces The Breaking Point poster wasn’t a Brexit advert? ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/89 "2017-07-05T11:27:58Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Since the “problem” depends on the unspoken and unsubstantiated a priori assumption that the (undefined) bearers of the existing culture (whatever that is ) on the one hand, and Muslims on the other, will transmit their existing beliefs, customs, behaviours, aspirations and expectations to their children, and they in turn to their children, unchanged and in perpetuity… > > …the question is - what is your problem? Okay, I’ll put it this way: “the (undefined) bearers of the existing culture” meaning non-Muslims. Can you answer the direct question or not: Given current trends, can we expect England to be a country wherein the majority of the population is Muslim, or not? So, there is no such thing as traditional British culture? The hijab has been a fixture of British culture? When people think Rule, Brittania!, they think hijabs and Sharia? The Cultural Left’s deep self-hatred is saddening. I guess from your feeble answer I can expect to see Britain, and Europe from which my ancestors hailed, become yet another third world Muslim nest of hate and fury in years to come. Very very sad. So much will be lost. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/90 "2017-07-05T12:00:06Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > Okay, I’ll put it this way: “the (undefined) bearers of the existing culture” meaning non-Muslims. Can you answer the direct question or not: Given current trends, can we expect England to be a country wherein the majority of the population is Muslim, or not? No. Not remotely. This is not a thing that will happen. > [@](#): > > So, there is no such thing as traditional British culture? The hijab has been a fixture of British culture? When people think Rule, Brittania!, they think hijabs and Sharia? It’s funny how “traditional culture” tend to be “the way things were when I grew up”. Cultures change. Kebabs and Indian food are now fixtures of “traditional British culture”. An insane amount of Americanisms have long since taken hold in British culture as well, particularly in popular music, television and film, as have elements of West Indian black culture. There are Polish delis all over my neighbourhood now (which is good if you like sausage) and a Polish section in my local Tesco. None of these are bad things. And as elements of South Asian Islamic culture filter into British culture, British culture will be filtering into how those communities in the UK think and behave. And while they will hold onto those elements that they consider important to their faith, they will also become British, in the way that the Sikhs of Southall and the Jews of Golders Green have. Also, of course, Islam is both more than just “hijabs and Sharia” and, most significantly, in many instances _not even_ about hijabs and Sharia. Islam is as diverse in beliefs and cultural practices as Christianity, and runs the gamut from extremely conservative to extremely liberal. (On a side note, the reference to “Rule, Britannia” is strangely apropos given that it was in part a response to a cultural clash caused by foreign types (the Georges)coming over here and imposing their laws on British society.) > [@](#): > > The Cultural Left’s deep self-hatred is saddening. I guess from your feeble answer I can expect to see Britain, and Europe from which my ancestors hailed, become yet another third world Muslim nest of hate and fury in years to come. Very very sad. So much will be lost. This is entirely right-wing paranoid fantasy, like the claims of some that Birmingham and parts of London are “no-go” areas. There is far more “hate and fury” coming from the Islamophobes than there is from Muslims in the UK right now. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/91 "2017-07-05T12:37:41Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > **Novelty Bobble** , you’ve posted on this board long enough to know nobody is convinced by debate in a day. I think this would be doubly true for a Dagestani bomb maker in an Egyptian prison. I (thankfully) have no idea what is possible within such circumstances, nor have you. > [@](#): > > To his second lie, he claimed he had given up his extremist views while in prison, but that isn’t the case. where has he claimed that? The consistent narrative from him was that he began his move away from extremism while in prison, not that he came out fully converted. At his PUBLIC press conference on his release and return to the UK he said…a direct quote > [@](#): > > “I have become more convinced of the ideas that I went into prison with.” > [@](#): > > He also took credit for “deradicalizing” an anti-Muslim bigot named Tommy Robinson, but it turns out Nawaz was paying him to make that claim. Who is making the claim about that? the same Tommy Robinson that now refutes his conversion and has swung back to an extremist point of view? > [@](#): > > Anyway, I have wasted way too much of my life on Nawaz. He is of little value. I criticized his views in this thread and you are saying I didn’t. That’s fine. I will leave it at that. Whatever. If anyone has the slightest interest they can easily look back at the words you wrote and pick out, if they can, the criticism you made of his views. You could even cut and paste it here in reply and that’d be a slam-dunk wouldn’t it? > [@](#): > > Regarding our instutions and defense against bad ideas. Yes, we have what we need. If a Muslim wishes to seek political office by supporting various ideas stemming from an extremely conservative view of Islam then they will fail based on the bad ideas. Are you saying that the bad ideas someone holds _should_ be highlighted, debated and criticised in order to allow people to exercise their democratic rights to select a candidate or not? These “institutions” and “defenses” of which you speak are free speech, debate and democracy. No bad idea is above scrutiny, certainly not a religious idea. Do you agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/92 "2017-07-05T13:49:46Z")
The final fatality tally for jihadi attacks during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan increased to 1,639, primarily fueled by victims who succumbed to their injuries. With a total of 3,343 casualties, including 1,704 injuries, Ramadan 2017 is one of the bloodiest holy months in recent history. The number of deaths this year marked a nearly four-fold increase from the estimated 421 people killed by Islamic extremists last year. There were nearly 160 terror incidents in about 30 predominantly Muslim countries this year, including one jihadi attack in the United States. ^^^ This is part of the problem. In the USA, I Can not think of one ethic group or religion outside of Islam that had numerous terrorist attacks. So nations should have the right to limit or prevent immigration from Islam. While I agree the majority of Islam has no problem, there is no denying a portion of it clearly does. That and Shria Law is is ANTI Western views in many cases, with the muslim immigrations valuing it over the culture of their new home land. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/93 "2017-07-05T13:57:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you saying that the bad ideas someone holds _should_ be highlighted, debated and criticised in order to allow people to exercise their democratic rights to select a candidate or not? These “institutions” and “defenses” of which you speak are free speech, debate and democracy. No bad idea is above scrutiny, certainly not a religious idea. Do you agree with that? Let me propose two approaches to fighting intolerance toward the LGBTQ community. #1 - I criticize Islam #2 - I criticize intolerance toward the LGBTQ community If I criticize Islam for its intolerance toward the LGBTQ community, I can expect those criticisms to be ignored and defended against by Muslims, and for others to call me a bigot who has no understanding of the construct “Islam” or the variation in attitude Muslims exhibit toward LGBTQ individuals. I will be left feeling confused because I thought these people criticizing me were my fellow ideological travelers, but now they seem somewhat regressive. If I criticize intolerance toward the LGBTQ community then nobody would wrongly believe me a bigot, people who identify as Muslim might listen to my arguments, and my criticisms would address the broader population of people who are intolerant toward the LGBTQ community. Since I would prefer the entire population of the UK or USA to show tolerance toward the LGBTQ community, I think the second approach would be far more effective than the first approach. If my goal is to give people who want to express intolerance toward Islam a safe space in order to voice their concerns, then the first approach may be better. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/94 "2017-07-05T13:59:37Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > Okay, I’ll put it this way: “the (undefined) bearers of the existing culture” meaning non-Muslims. Can you answer the direct question or not: Given current trends, can we expect England to be a country wherein the majority of the population is Muslim, or not? Highly unlikely - and what sort of Muslims might they be anyway? I notice the totality of your reply simply doesn’t address the point: cultures change over time anyway. Every generation contains those who bemoan the loss of something “traditional” as it does so. > [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > So, there is no such thing as traditional British culture? The hijab has been a fixture of British culture? When people think Rule, Brittania!, they think hijabs and Sharia? British, or English (they’re not always the same)? Whatever any generation thinks of as traditional British culture has some new adoptions and some seeming fixtures - until they’re not. For all I know, the same may be true of different Muslim cultures from different parts of the world as they adapt and change once settled in Britain. Certainly there are plenty of assertive British Muslim women who don’t wear traditional dress, just as there are plenty of English/Scottish/Welsh British people who no longer dress like they’re in a Jane Austen or Dickens novel, and not that many with the social attitudes to match. When people thought “Rule Britannia” in the 1890s, could they imagine the Beatles or the Glastonbury Festival or the singer whose name you borrow, let alone all the deeper social changes of the 20th and 21st centuries - the welfare state, anti-discrimination laws, and all the rest of it? > [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > The Cultural Left’s deep self-hatred is saddening. I guess from your feeble answer I can expect to see Britain, and Europe from which my ancestors hailed, become yet another third world Muslim nest of hate and fury in years to come. Very very sad. So much will be lost. See above. It is not self-hatred to find the positive, and the patriotic, in social change and developments. Your own country - assuming you’re from the US - used to regard that as one of its proudest aspirations. And as for the assumption that all Muslims are and ipso facto always will be “third world”, a “nest of hate and fury” - it might be advisable to spend less time boning up on the apocalyptic rhetoric and a bit more actually reading in depth and thinking in depth about something you obviously don’t know much about. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/95 "2017-07-05T14:16:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Given that I withdrew the claim about inhibitions to ownership back in post 54, I find it amusing that you keep harping on it. > > I agree that the exchange has been bizarre, with you claiming that I am wrong about unspecified phenomena, in a rather insulting manner, then whining that I have used pejoratives. It is like your attempt to support your claim that Britain has no bars to non-citizen ownership of property–that appears to be accurate–with an appeal to EC standards that are violated by other EC nations. It would appear that you simply wish to be angry about something and it does not matter what. I don’t know if you’re a little dyxlexic - I am- but you seem to have jumped from the European Convention (on Human Rights to ‘EC’, and you seem to assume from your own shorthand 'European Community. I’ll be clear; the European Convention on Human Rights, as incorporated wholesale into UK legislation - is the cornerstone of equality rights across Europe, and most certainly in the UK. As a matter of fact, you were unaware of that and on that basis I suggest you pull back all your extrapolated conclusions based on Pakistani taxi drivers and have a proper rethink. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I certainly do not regard the U.S. as culturally superior to any other nation when viewing racist behavior … This is the most amusing line of the thread. It’s really, so kind of you to consider the USA walks as an equal among nations struggling with cultural and institutional racism. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/96 "2017-07-05T14:29:16Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > There was, for example, the Trojan Horse scandal, where it was determined that there were 6+ ostensibly state-run schools whose administration had been taken over by fundamentalist Muslims who had variously eliminated art/music, all foreign languages besides Arabic or Urdu, employed teachers who extolled the virtues of salafist Islam, and taught creationism as fact (not all these things happened at every school), as well as various other offenses. > [@tomndebb](#): > > The “Trojan Horse” scandal, for example, appears to have been a bit of stupidity on the part of some administrators that were blown out of proportion, not a “Muslim” attempt to set up madrasas that would create new radicals. > [@Gestalt](#): > > I can’t comment on how significant the scandal actually was, and you may be right. But of note many high level government officials did comment on it, including Tony Blair and David Cameron (which of course does not necessarily indicate that it wasn’t blown out of proportion). To pick up on this discussion of the Trojan Horse “scandal”, there’s an[interesting recent piece by one of the barristers in the case here](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/04/michael-gove-extremism-trojan-horse-schools), setting out the flaws in the case. It’s worth noting: 1. The High Court found that the case against them amounted to “[an abuse of justice](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/may/30/trojan-horse-tribunal-five-birmingham-teachers-islam)” > [@](#): > > The panel hearing the case at the National College for Teaching and Leadership (NCTL) in Coventry concluded that there had been an abuse of justice of such seriousness that it had no option but to end the hearings. > > “It is fundamental to the proper administration of justice that the panel must be able to rely on the regulatory authority acting in a way which ensures the integrity of the process,” the panel concluded, in a decision that heavily criticised the Department for Education’s legal advisers. > > It continued: “There has been an abuse of the process which is of such seriousness that it offends the panel’s sense of justice and propriety.” 1. The government appears not to have understood its own guidance on prayer in state schools. Prayer is not merely permitted, nor even encouraged in state schools. It is mandatory. > [@](#): > > …it has been a requirement in law since the 1944 Education Act for every child in every school to participate every day in an act of collective worship. Current guidance begins with a preamble: “The government is concerned that insufficient attention has been paid explicitly to the spiritual, moral and cultural aspects of pupils’ development, and would encourage schools to address how the curriculum and other activities might best contribute to this crucial dimension of education.” > > On collective worship we are told: “Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God, to consider spiritual and moral issues and to explore their own beliefs; to encourage participation and response.” For a largely Muslim school to organise Islamic rather than Christian worship doesn’t seem terribly strange on the face of it. 1. It now seems to be the case that parents of Muslim pupils in the area are now, rather than sending their children to a school which both broadcast the call to prayer and took pupils on visits to upper-tier universities, choosing to homeschool their children. How that will effect integration remains to be seen. > [@](#): > > It is easy to say we must not pander to extremism and it must be challenged at all costs. Saying it has political benefits – but also societal costs. Those who say this choose not to understand that the Park View culture was one of challenge. Pupils were encouraged into school with the reassurance that their faith and their culture would be respected. Once there, and engaged in education, they were challenged. Park View pupils stood on stage and performed with Pink Floyd, they stayed at Russell Group universities, they sailed yachts on the Norfolk Broads. Best of all, Park View pupils were given the gift of educational attainment. > > Those who spout the easy words do not appreciate the cost of what has happened. A successful approach to achieving engagement with mainstream education by the more socially conservative members of our society has been trashed. The successor school to Park View, Rockwood, has a different approach to integration and British values – for example, it has introduced a cadet force. > > Home schooling is on the rise. Those parents who were anxious that their child’s religion and culture should be afforded proper space and respect at school may have withdrawn them from state education. Park View had developed a system that reached out to a conservative Muslim population and drew them into participation in wider society. Those from the most conservative backgrounds are now at risk of being driven back to home schooling and the madrasa. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/97 "2017-07-05T14:48:19Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You talk to me like I don’t live here, like I don’t visit muslim friends in their houses, work with muslims, live in the same community? > > I have to say this is a super bizarre exchange. With unnecessary pejorative embellishments from a Moderator, to boot. Except for that last bit, welcome to the feeling others have whenever you talk about the US. Just take heart in the fact that **tomndebb** doesn’t talk about the UK constantly. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/98 "2017-07-05T14:48:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Let me propose two approaches to fighting intolerance toward the LGBTQ community. > > #1 - I criticize Islam > #2 - I criticize intolerance toward the LGBTQ community > > If I criticize Islam for its intolerance toward the LGBTQ community, I can expect those criticisms to be ignored and defended against by Muslims, and for others to call me a bigot who has no understanding of the construct “Islam” or the variation in attitude Muslims exhibit toward LGBTQ individuals. I will be left feeling confused because I thought these people criticizing me were my fellow ideological travelers, but now they seem somewhat regressive. > > If I criticize intolerance toward the LGBTQ community then nobody would wrongly believe me a bigot, people who identify as Muslim might listen to my arguments, and my criticisms would address the broader population of people who are intolerant toward the LGBTQ community. > > Since I would prefer the entire population of the UK or USA to show tolerance toward the LGBTQ community, I think the second approach would be far more effective than the first approach. > > If my goal is to give people who want to express intolerance toward Islam a safe space in order to voice their concerns, then the first approach may be better. Those are not the only two ways of criticising intolerance towards the LGBTQ community. Nor are your scenarios the only possible outcomes. Your simplistic reading of the situation leaves you very little space for maneuver and only goes to reinforce the unspoken belief that a community with regressive beliefs can escape direct criticism as long as they wave the “religion” flag. Pointing out the bad ideas and beliefs contained within religion is not bigotry in any way shape or form. I think that Catholic teachings against contraception and the lack of equality for women in the faith are bad…it is not bigotry to point that out. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/99 "2017-07-05T14:58:33Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The final fatality tally for jihadi attacks during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan increased to 1,639, primarily fueled by victims who succumbed to their injuries. > > With a total of 3,343 casualties, including 1,704 injuries, Ramadan 2017 is one of the bloodiest holy months in recent history. The number of deaths this year marked a nearly four-fold increase from the estimated 421 people killed by Islamic extremists last year. …most of whom were also Muslims. Why are you defining Islam by the attackers and not by the much more numerous victims? > [@](#): > > There were nearly 160 terror incidents in about 30 predominantly Muslim countries this year, including one jihadi attack in the United States. There have also been more than 200 mass shootings in the US in 2017 alone, with hundreds of victims. Shall we judge Americans by this figure? > [@](#): > > ^^^ This is part of the problem. In the USA, I Can not think of one ethic group or religion outside of Islam that had numerous terrorist attacks. More than one? Hell, there was that loon who shot up a baseball field full of Congressmen recently and, as noted, a lot of other mass shootings by non-Muslims as well. Bear in mind that while Islamic terrorism is a significant problem **right now** , it has not always been so. Islam has been around for roughly 1400 years; the rise in the Wahhabist fringe is a serious problem but it is not indicative of something intrinsic and unique to Islam. It wasn’t Muslims who popularized suicide bombings in the first place, and it wasn’t so long ago that good Christian folk were bombing innocent people (and [The Troubles may not be over yet](http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/05/29/news/car-park-murder-surreal-as-bank-holiday-shoppers-walked-by-victim-1037998/)). > [@](#): > > So nations should have the right to limit or prevent immigration from Islam. That conclusion does not remotely follow from what came before. > [@](#): > > While I agree the majority of Islam has no problem, there is no denying a portion of it clearly does. A portion of conservative white Christians also has a problem with extremist terrorism, to the point that the FBI considers it a greater threat to public safety than Islamic extremist. Perhaps we should also ban conservative white Christians from entering the country. > [@](#): > > That and Shria Law is is ANTI Western views in many cases, with the muslim immigrations valuing it over the culture of their new home land. We’ve been over this with you. This is an ill-informed and incoherent argument. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/100 "2017-07-05T16:40:43Z")
In response to which groups are committing terrorism in the US besides Muslims, [this link](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d79f88e4b0db3478a04405/t/591b3e7886e6c06246aa4c22/1494957697235/Domestic+Terrorism+-+2015-Present+-+Targets+and+Methods.pdf) came up in another thread. It could do with more text, but it’s useful data. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396.md?page=6)