# Islam in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396 "2017-07-02T22:56:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/101 "2017-07-05T17:04:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Those are not the only two ways of criticising intolerance towards the LGBTQ community. Nor are your scenarios the only possible outcomes. Your simplistic reading of the situation leaves you very little space for maneuver and only goes to reinforce the unspoken belief that a community with regressive beliefs can escape direct criticism as long as they wave the “religion” flag. > Pointing out the bad ideas and beliefs contained within religion is not bigotry in any way shape or form. > I think that Catholic teachings against contraception and the lack of equality for women in the faith are bad…it is not bigotry to point that out. I agree the two approaches I listed aren’t all of them, nor are the responses all of them, but both the approaches and the consequences are readily recognizable and very common in discussions of these issues. And I wouldn’t necessarily think of somebody as a bigot for thinking that Catholics believe contraception is immoral, but I wouldn’t hesitate to point out that Catholics and the Catholic clergy vary in their acceptance of that teaching. If this somebody ignored these facts and continued to criticize Catholics and question their suitability for the UK, then I would rightly think of them as a person with prejudice/discrimination issues. And maybe you agree with this good sir? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/102 "2017-07-05T17:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Gyrate;20324847…most of whom were also Muslims. Why are you defining Islam by the attackers and not by the much more numerous victims? Some were not. My point Gyrate, which you can not disagree with is Islam has more violence in that any other major religion out there. Sorry if the data is uncomfortable for you to read. > [@](#): > > There have also been more than 200 mass shootings in the US in 2017 alone, with hundreds of victims. Shall we judge Americans by this figure? I’m talking about jihad like terrorism against a state, not anyone’s murder rate. They are separate issues. > [@](#): > > Bear in mind that while Islamic terrorism is a significant problem **right now** , it has not always been so. That is because until recently Islamic immigration was rather minor so your point is rather mute. That has changed today, and there is a clear correlation between large numbers of Islamic immigration to terrorism. You can argue 1% become radicalized if you must. 1% of just 10,000 is 100 radicals. My argument is let’s be truthful here. No other major group is causing this type of terrorist problems today in the world, and as such Nations have the right to limit of ban such immigration until a time where it becomes a rarity in the news. As for Sharia law, if you for these values, please say so. Most in the Western World that are non-Islamic view such laws and customs as sexists, barbaric, and disenfranchising towards anyone who does not follow them. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/103 "2017-07-05T18:39:09Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Jesus, wept, I really don’t think there is any parallel with the experience of blacks in the USA. > > I’d respectfully suggest you are not well informed. So, is your argument that there isn’t discrimination against South Asians in the UK; that discrimination doesn’t lead to social segregation; or something else? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/104 "2017-07-05T19:05:29Z")
No, my argument is there is no - zero, nada - parallel. It’s too bonkers to even write further. Do some work. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/105 "2017-07-05T19:22:45Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, my argument is there is no - zero, nada - parallel. It’s too bonkers to even write further. Do some work. Clearly you’re unable to defend your bigoted comments. Work on that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/106 "2017-07-05T19:54:47Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I agree the two approaches I listed aren’t all of them, nor are the responses all of them, but both the approaches and the consequences are readily recognizable and very common in discussions of these issues. unfortunately yes, and you don’t help the possibility of discussion by perpetuating the myth that the only non-bigoted approach involves not directly challenging problematic religious beliefs. > [@](#): > > And I wouldn’t necessarily think of somebody as a bigot for thinking that Catholics believe contraception is immoral, good, because according to the teachings of catholicism it very definitely is. > [@](#): > > but I wouldn’t hesitate to point out that Catholics and the Catholic clergy vary in their acceptance of that teaching. quite right. The point needs to be made again and again that no single religious group is an homogeneous mass of a single mind or view. > [@](#): > > If this somebody ignored these facts and continued to criticize Catholics If they continue to criticise only those that hold those beliefs then that is not a problem at all > [@](#): > > and question their suitability for the UK, then I would rightly think of them as a person with prejudice/discrimination issues. And maybe you agree with this good sir? Well, that is a different kettle of fish entirely and not a course of action that I’ve called for. I don’t think anyone should be punished merely for the beliefs they hold, that’s thought crime and we’ve all read or Orwell have we not? However, nor should they be immune from criticism. I merely reserve the right to criticise any problematic belief where I come across it. I don’t care what religious, political or ideological base it springs from, _everything_ must be fair game otherwise we are all off to hell in a handcart and lets not kid ourselves, there are groups out there more than happy to help. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/107 "2017-07-05T22:12:46Z")
So what’s the problem then? Left leaning people everywhere croticize these sorts of religious or cultural values that foster inequality or cruelty. It doesn’t matter whether it is religious doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/108 "2017-07-06T02:03:00Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t know if you’re a little dyxlexic - I am- but you seem to have jumped from the European Convention (on Human Rights to ‘EC’, and you seem to assume from your own shorthand 'European Community. I am not the one jumping. I am aware that EC is not EU. However, how many members of the European Union are NOT subscribers to the EC? Given that those nations have found ways to place blocks on the purchase of homes by non-citizens, an appeal to EC does nothing to support a claim that Britain has no bar to such purchases. I will accept the Britain has no such bar, but your argument was baseless. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > As a matter of fact, you were unaware of that and on that basis I suggest you pull back all your extrapolated conclusions based on Pakistani taxi drivers and have a proper rethink. I was indeed aware of the EC and also of the ways in which subscribing nations have found methods to avoid complying with it–a point of which you appear to be ignorant. Why you wish to drag poor Pakistani cabbies into this discussion, I have no idea. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is the most amusing line of the thread. It’s really, so kind of you to consider the USA walks as an equal among nations struggling with cultural and institutional racism. This is a bit hard to parse, although it does not appear to actually reflect anything I have said. However, if you think that Europe or Britain is free of racism, then you have pretty well established that your views are separate from reality. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/109 "2017-07-06T06:47:27Z")
Message board machismo. Later. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/110 "2017-07-06T09:36:07Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > So what’s the problem then? Left leaning people everywhere croticize these sorts of religious or cultural values that foster inequality or cruelty. It doesn’t matter whether it is religious doctrine. First let’s agree that the fight against intolerance is not just the preserve of us “left-leaning” people. Nothing good comes from assuming that all people of a given ideology are a hive mind correct? plus, in the UK it was a conservative government that pushed through the gay marriage legislation, but that’s a side point. I get the feeling you are saying that as long as you are criticising intolerance in general then you have no need of focusing in on particular communities, cultures, ideologies or religions where such intolerance is more prevalent. Would you extend the same courtesy to a community that harbours and promotes far-right thinking? Would you OK with continuing to criticise in general without paying special attention to that community? I disagree completely, you _need_ to do both and _can_ do both without it necessarily being bigoted or discriminatory. If I have misunderstood your position and you actually agree with my last statement there then indeed, we have no conflict in our basic positions but maybe one of style. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/111 "2017-07-06T09:54:07Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Some were not. My point Gyrate, which you can not disagree with is Islam has more violence in that any other major religion out there. Sorry if the data is uncomfortable for you to read. It does, right now, although there are also violent pograms being carried out in Africa by Christians (and The Lord’s Resistance Army is still going as well). The point, which you continue to miss, is that the problem isn’t the entirety of Islam, it’s a tiny minority which concentrates the majority of its efforts on _other Muslims_. > [@](#): > > I’m talking about jihad like terrorism against a state, not anyone’s murder rate. They are separate issues. Of course you are. By defining your scope narrowly you get to avoid data you find uncomfortable to read. Do you think it’s clever to point out that only Muslims are carrying out jihad? Meanwhile, [your confirmation bias is showing](https://theintercept.com/2017/05/31/the-numbers-dont-lie-white-far-right-terrorists-pose-a-clear-danger-to-us-all/). > [@the article](#): > > "Fatalities resulting from attacks by far-right wing violent extremists have exceeded those caused by radical Islamist violent extremists in 10 of the 15 years, and were the same in 3 of the years since September 12, 2001.” > [@Silver lining](#): > > That is because until recently Islamic immigration was rather minor so your point is rather mute. Firstly - “moot”, not “mute”. Secondly, a major reason Islamic immigration had grown significantly is that there are a lot of normal, reasonable, innocent Muslim families fleeing war and extremist terrorism in the Middle East. By lumping the victims and persecutors together, you are actually carrying out the exact agenda the terrorists want, which is to create a divide between Islam and the West. They want Westerners to reject moderate Muslims, which will then facilitate radicalization. How does it feel to be helping ISIS achieve their goals? > [@](#): > > That has changed today, and there is a clear correlation between large numbers of Islamic immigration to terrorism. You can argue 1% become radicalized if you must. 1% of just 10,000 is 100 radicals. Firstly, the correlation is explained above - the immigrants are trying to get away from the terrorists. Secondly, wow. You made up a statistic, and then used that hypothetical statistic to support your point. Meanwhile, the actual, real, not-made-up number of terrorist attacks by radical Islamist immigrants is…? > [@](#): > > My argument is let’s be truthful here. No other major group is causing this type of terrorist problems today in the world, and as such Nations have the right to limit of ban such immigration until a time where it becomes a rarity in the news. Yes, let’s be truthful here. The problem is your grouping of all Muslims together. Islam is not a monolithic culture, as I and others have pointed out many times to you before. Why do you keep ignoring this? > [@](#): > > As for Sharia law, if you for these values, please say so. Sigh. I’m not for those values, and if your takeaway from what I’ve written is that I am, I’m not sure how much more I can say to someone who draws such wildly inaccurate conclusions from what they read. > [@](#): > > Most in the Western World that are non-Islamic view such laws and customs as sexists, barbaric, and disenfranchising towards anyone who does not follow them. There are a lot of people in the Western Word who are perfectly fine with sexist, barbaric and disenfranchising laws and customs…as long as they’re done in the name of Christianity. Go have a read of the SRIOTD thread. Have a look at all the laws proposed by Republicans that are sexist, barbaric and disenfranchising. Have a look at their statements about [rape](https://goprapeadvisorychart.com/). [Gay conversion therapy](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/us/politics/mike-pence-and-conversion-therapy-a-history.html) is supported by the Republican Party (potentially including our current Vice President, although his spokespeople say otherwise). Ah, who am I kidding. You ignored all this the first several times it was posted; I don’t know why I expect you to pay attention to it now. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/112 "2017-07-06T13:15:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > First let’s agree that the fight against intolerance is not just the preserve of us “left-leaning” people. Nothing good comes from assuming that all people of a given ideology are a hive mind correct? plus, in the UK it was a conservative government that pushed through the gay marriage legislation, but that’s a side point. In the USA, conservatives act as the obstacle toward greater acceptance and equality of many different groups of people. Liberals far less so. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I get the feeling you are saying that as long as you are criticising intolerance in general then you have no need of focusing in on particular communities, cultures, ideologies or religions where such intolerance is more prevalent. If I criticize intolerant practices or abusive behavior or whatever ideas I find incompatible with my view of what my society should be like, then there is no need to speak of specific communities, cultures, ideologies, or religions unless my goal is to ostracize those groups of people. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Would you extend the same courtesy to a community that harbours and promotes far-right thinking? Would you OK with continuing to criticise in general without paying special attention to that community? In practice, it depends. If I want that community to be ostracized, then sure, I will criticize them as a group. They’ll be defensive and mistrust me and I will mistrust them and say mean things about them without understanding. On the other hand, if I don’t want them to be ostracized but want them to begin to change or feel welcome so that they may be open, then I would criticize the values I oppose without tying the idea to a specific community. Instead, I would try to learn about their culture, learn about them as individuals, and volunteer my time to help with their needs. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I disagree completely, you _need_ to do both and _can_ do both without it necessarily being bigoted or discriminatory. If I have misunderstood your position and you actually agree with my last statement there then indeed, we have no conflict in our basic positions but maybe one of style. I regularly call various conservative groups of Americans “savages”. It’s unfair and completely negates them as people. I do it because I don’t give a shit if they think well of me and I have ceased to care about what concerns them. Call it the Trump effect if you will. If I am aware a person is a member of these groups I will be discriminatory toward them and my ideas aren’t going to change anytime soon about them so you can fairly call me a bigot. Behaving this way is easier because I have labeled them as a group as “savages” and I don’t bother to learn about them as individuals. Criticizing a community in this way leads to the behavior I exhibit. If you consciously want to do that, then go ahead and do it, and admit to it. It’s what you are doing. If you want to fight gender inequality, then I strongly recommend against this group criticism because it will only lead to mistrust, defensiveness, and dehumanization. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/113 "2017-07-06T13:46:45Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > In general I am inclined to agree with you. However, one notable point here is that we have a “control” for our social science population. Indians immigrants to the U.K. are doing better in a number of metrics, including education and income. Hindu Indians do somewhat better than Muslim Indians. > Broadly, Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis share a similar culture (although there are a lot of differences as well)–they shared a country until a few decades ago and there are still lots of similarities in terms of dress, language, cuisine, etc. The main difference is religion. > Of course this is hardly “proof” that the issue is religion–maybe the Indians who immigrate are better educated or had broader social networks, I’m sure the bias against Muslims in hiring isn’t helping. But it is a data point. > > I am on my phone so can’t link to studies right now but am happy to do so later if anyone wants Hindu and Muslim immigrants to the UK were drawn from entirely different economic, cultural and ethnic groups. If you placed a million Hindu Bihari villagers in northern England instead of a million Kashmiri villagers I don’t think the outcomes would be much better. (I say this as someone who is extremely critical both of mass immigration to Europe and the UK, and also someone who’s theologically opposed to Islam: I don’t think _religion_ per se is that central to the problem here). Also there’s no such thing as Indian or Pakistani ‘culture’. (Bangladesh is a different case as they’re essentially one ethnic group who also lives in India). Both india and Pakistan are multiethnic and multicultural societies. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/114 "2017-07-06T14:18:23Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I regularly call various conservative groups of Americans “savages”. It’s unfair and completely negates them as people. I do it because I don’t give a shit if they think well of me and I have ceased to care about what concerns them. Call it the Trump effect if you will. If I am aware a person is a member of these groups I will be discriminatory toward them and my ideas aren’t going to change anytime soon about them so you can fairly call me a bigot. Behaving this way is easier because I have labeled them as a group as “savages” and I don’t bother to learn about them as individuals… I think this tells me all I need to know about how you see and treat the “others”. The unwillingness to directly challenge views in certain religious groups smacks of over-compensation for your prejudiced views of conservative groups. i.e. you project your behavior towards conservative groups onto others and their criticism of religious groups, you think that others must have that similar intent…well, thankfully not all of us do. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/115 "2017-07-06T14:40:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think this tells me all I need to know about how you see and treat the “others”. The unwillingness to directly challenge views in certain religious groups smacks of over-compensation for your prejudiced views of conservative groups. i.e. you project your behavior towards conservative groups onto others and their criticism of religious groups, you think that others must have that similar intent…well, thankfully not all of us do. You’re free to criticize Muslims, and they are free to think you’re a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/116 "2017-07-06T16:01:16Z")
While I generally do not support religious dogma in general, Islam is not a religion. It’s an ideology. It’s not an ideology that is compatible with Western Liberal values. The Muslims’ stubborn refusal to assimilate, and their attempt to bend the mainstream culture to themselves, rather than assimilate, is also not compatible. The only area I agree with Trump is on his ban - and I wish we could kick out the rest already here too. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/117 "2017-07-06T16:30:59Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > While I generally do not support religious dogma in general, Islam is not a religion. It’s an ideology. It’s not an ideology that is compatible with Western Liberal values. The Muslims’ stubborn refusal to assimilate, and their attempt to bend the mainstream culture to themselves, rather than assimilate, is also not compatible. The only area I agree with Trump is on his ban - and I wish we could kick out the rest already here too. Your post is bigoted nonsense. 1. By any reasonable view, Islam is a religion. 2. There are obviously Muslims who find no contradiction in the practice of their religion and so-called western liberal values. There are large populations, in fact, that have no problem with that. 3. What do you mean by “stubborn refusal to assimilate”? There are non-Muslims in western democracies whose families have lived there for generations and, yet, they are still treated as foreigners. What about the bigots who refuse to treat certain minorities as though they are both welcome and belong in the country? 4. What large group of Muslim immigrants have “attempted to bend mainstream culture to their will”? Be specific. 5. So, you’re admitting that Trump is lying to the judiciary to sneak an unconstitutional ban into place? 6. There’s a reason why it’s unconstitutional to ban someone on the basis of religion. Your, and Trump’s, bigoted nonsense make it quite clear what that reason is. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/118 "2017-07-06T16:31:13Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > While I generally do not support religious dogma in general, Islam is not a religion. It’s an ideology. It’s not an ideology that is compatible with Western Liberal values. The Muslims’ stubborn refusal to assimilate, and their attempt to bend the mainstream culture to themselves, rather than assimilate, is also not compatible. The only area I agree with Trump is on his ban - and I wish we could kick out the rest already here too. Very few of the major religious ideologies are fully compatible with modern western liberal values when taken literally. Thankfully the vast majority of muslims do not take it literally and they bend their interpretation accordingly. (I’ve worked quite a bit in Turkey, what a living contradiction _that_ country is!) They can have a live and let live approach which means they treat religion as a private matter and don’t seek to impose it beyond their own adherence. So the talk of “kicking out” people based on their nominal religion is a nonsense and has the whiff of fascism just as much as extremist Islamism itself. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/119 "2017-07-06T16:35:49Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You’re free to criticize Muslims, and they are free to think you’re a dick. Important distinction to make here, “I’m free to criticise _Islam_, and _muslims_ are free to think I’m a dick”. And really, that is kind of the whole point. Free criticism, free speech, challenge the beliefs and the ideas where you find them without fear or favour. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396/120 "2017-07-06T17:29:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Important distinction to make here, “I’m free to criticise _Islam_, and _muslims_ are free to think I’m a dick”. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Whether I say, “Conservatism is a savage ideology” or “Conservatives are savages”, I am pretty sure it will be taken the same way. I don’t even know how you criticize “Islam”. Give me an example of some criticism you would like to make of Islam but aren’t able to do it for fear of being called a bigot or something. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And really, that is kind of the whole point. Free criticism, free speech, challenge the beliefs and the ideas where you find them without fear or favour. That’s fine, but as I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, one approach leads to mistrust and mutual isolation. The other approach leads to combatting actual problems. You feel the need to criticize Islam. Have fun with it. Nobody has ever said you couldn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-in-the-uk/790396.md?page=7)