# Islam is a Violent Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497 "2006-06-05T16:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/121 "2006-06-06T19:22:13Z")
But ofcourse, **Tom** and **FWorld** , Islam means peace, huh. All those things mentioned are lies. Lies, I tell you! As for the OP’s statement _‘Islam is a Violent Religion’_, I’ll go a step further: Islam uses religion as a front and is in reality a political doctrine: In his new book, Islamic Imperialism: A History, Professor Efraim Karsh does not mince words about Mohammed’s early and (to all those who do not accept the divinity of his inspiration) unscrupulous resort to robbery and violence, or about Islam’s militaristic aspects, or about the link between Islamic tradition and the current wave of fundamentalist violence in the world. The originality of Karsh’s interpretation is its underlying assumption that Islam was, from the very beginning, a pretext for personal and dynastic political ambition, from the razzias against the Meccan caravans and the expulsion of Jewish tribes from Medina, to the siege of Vienna a millennium later in 1529, and Hamas today. Contrary to its universalistic pretensions, Karsh argues, Islam has never succeeded in eliminating political power struggles within the Muslim world, where, on the contrary, such struggles have always been murderous. Islamic regimes, many espousing in the beginning the ascetic principles of what one might call desert Islam, invariably degenerate (if it be degeneration) into luxury- and privilege-loving dynasties. Like all other political entities, Islamic regimes seek to preserve and, if possible, extend their power. They have shown no hesitation in compromising with or allying themselves with those whom they regard as infidels. Saladin, a mendaciously simplified version of whose exploits has inflamed hysterical sentiment all over the Middle East, was not above forming alliances with Christian monarchs to achieve his imperial ends; the Ottoman caliphate would not have survived as long as it did had the Sultan not exploited European rivalries and allied himself now with one, now with another Christian power. In short, Islamic imperialism, in Karsh’s view, illustrates three transcendent political truths: the Nietzschean drive to power, Michels’ iron law of oligarchy, and Marx’s economic motor of history.\*\* Religious feeling, on this reading, is but an epiphenomenon, a mask for what is really going on. \*\* . ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/122 "2006-06-06T20:01:17Z")
> [@gum](#): > > In short, Islamic imperialism, in Karsh’s view, illustrates three transcendent political truths: the Nietzschean drive to power, Michels’ iron law of oligarchy, and Marx’s economic motor of history.\*\* Religious feeling, on this reading, is but an epiphenomenon, a mask for what is really going on. \*\* > > . Are you seriously suggesting that you could not anaylse the history of Christian leaders down the ages and come to exactly the same conclusions ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/123 "2006-06-06T20:08:54Z")
I’m sure if we try really hard we could think of a contemporary Christian world leader who has invaded and occupied another sovereign nation without provocation and attempted to impose his own ideologies on them. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/124 "2006-06-06T20:15:53Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Obviously, I was using Mother Teresa as an example. I really don’t think this is the place to get into the controversy regarding her again…but suffice to say, I do not buy into your idea that she is “evil.” Not to hijack too much, but one of my pet peeves (I keep my pet peeves in a very nice cage, with a running wheel) is when people use Mother Teresa as a lazy synonym for All That Is Good. As I have stated in those other threads, I consider her–with much data to support me–as one of the most evil, destructive women of the 20th century, and many good Christians agree with me. Back to the OP! ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/125 "2006-06-06T20:31:08Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Not to hijack too much, but one of my pet peeves (I keep my pet peeves in a very nice cage, with a running wheel) is when people use Mother Teresa as a lazy synonym for All That Is Good. As I have stated in those other threads, I consider her–with much data to support me–as one of the most evil, destructive women of the 20th century, and many good Christians agree with me. > > Back to the OP! Your pet peeve is noted. Now, as you say, back to the OP… ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/126 "2006-06-06T20:50:20Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Not to hijack too much, but one of my pet peeves (I keep my pet peeves in a very nice cage, with a running wheel) is when people use Mother Teresa as a lazy synonym for All That Is Good. As I have stated in those other threads, I consider her–with much data to support me–as one of the most evil, destructive women of the 20th century, and many good Christians agree with me. > > Back to the OP! How can you say that? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/127 "2006-06-06T20:53:36Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > How can you say that? Do a search for past threads on Mother Teresa (or the oft-misspelled “Mother Theresa”) and you’ll see. Feel free to bump an old thread if you like. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/128 "2006-06-06T21:00:18Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > How can you say that? By agreeing with the comments posted in the following threads that present that position: [How was Bl. Mother Teresa evil?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318375) [Another “Worst” Thread: 20th-Century Woman?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=319152) Now, Mother Teresa is not the topic of this thread. If anyone needs to discuss that topic, again, please open a new thread to do it. (Do not post to the threads linked, above, since they are long since abandoned and it would not be appropriate to raise them, again, when there may be participants who no longer post here and, thus, are not available to defend their positions. (It is permissible to link to those threads if one begins a new thread.) ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/129 "2006-06-06T21:02:41Z")
Ooooo, Yes, ofcourse **Diogenes** , how could I oversee Bush. All those beheadings he comitted, 9/11 was entirely his fault. So were Madrid, London, Paris, Indonesia, Salmon Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, the Cartoon riots Girls being hung in Iran because THEY were raped. [No, Bush didn’t hang the rapist, he hung the girls], Hangings in other islamic states because people were homosexual, An apostate in Afghanistan nearly killed because he’d became a christian - and Canada. Damn Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/130 "2006-06-06T21:04:35Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Ooooo, Yes, ofcourse **Diogenes** , how could I oversee Bush. > All those beheadings he comitted, 9/11 was entirely his fault. So were Madrid, London, Paris, Indonesia, Salmon Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, the Cartoon riots Girls being hung in Iran because THEY were raped. [No, Bush didn’t hang the rapist, he hung the girls], Hangings in other islamic states because people were homosexual, An apostate in Afghanistan nearly killed because he’d became a christian - and Canada. > Damn Bush. Machine-gunning babies at Haditha. Or was that just more bad apples? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/131 "2006-06-06T21:14:26Z")
> [@gum](#): > > But ofcourse, Tom and FWorld, Islam means peace, huh. All those things mentioned are lies. Lies, I tell you! Sorry. Being sarcastic does nothing to support your claim, especially when you are attacking a strawman that you set up and I never supported. One can make an argument that Islam has had periods of intolerance and aggression. However, if one wishes to make the claim that Islam is more evil than other religions (most of which have had their own periods of intolerance and aggression) or if one wishes to make claims that Islam is unalloyed evil incarnate, it would be well to find actual historical references that are neither badly written history spun to make a false point or outright lies. Claiming that the (mostly secular) destruction of the Armenians was _prompted_ by an adherence to Islam is simply wrong. Claiming that Greeks killed in a Greco-Turkish clash on the island of Cyprus were killed because their killers thought it was the will of Allah is wrong. Claiming that idi Amin was prompted by Muslim belief is simply stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/132 "2006-06-06T21:15:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m sure if we try really hard we could think of a contemporary Christian world leader who has invaded and occupied another sovereign nation without provocation and attempted to impose his own ideologies on them. I think looking at what this or that Christian or Muslim leader has done is besides the point of what makes a religion a peaceful one or not. Let’s look at the founders of the two religions: Jesus and Mohammed. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet_Muhammad): > [@](#): > > War between factions in Mecca and Medina followed, in which Muhammad and his followers were victorious. They had in great part achieved their victory by building a tribal coalition. After the conquest of Mecca, the coalition was extended. By the time of Muhammad’s death, he had unified much of Arabia under his rule, and launched military expeditions to the north, towards Syria and Palestine. Jesus did not fight any wars, and he did not go on any military expeditions to capture foreign lands. I guess the most “violent” thing Jesus did was to throw the money changers out of the temple. Ooooh, very violent. Also: **Mohammed:**"And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; “” **Jesus** : “Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” Of course, people can distort _any_ message to support evil deeds, as is demostrated by all the horrible things Christians have done throughout the ages “in the name of God”. So, in that sense, no religion can be considered peaceful, given what it’s adherents end up doing with it. But looking at the words and actions of the founders of the two religions, I would say that, at their core, Christianity is a more peaceful religion than Islam. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/133 "2006-06-06T21:17:21Z")
> [@gum](#): > > 9/11 was entirely his fault. Well, 9/11 was at least as much the fault of Bush as of anyone in Iraq. Attacking a country uninvolved with an event under the pretext of fighting the people who did perpetrate an event hardly makes a good justification for one’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/134 "2006-06-06T21:21:12Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Ooooo, Yes, ofcourse **Diogenes** , how could I oversee Bush. > All those beheadings he comitted, 9/11 was entirely his fault. So were Madrid, London, Paris, Indonesia, Salmon Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, the Cartoon riots Girls being hung in Iran because THEY were raped. [No, Bush didn’t hang the rapist, he hung the girls], Hangings in other islamic states because people were homosexual, An apostate in Afghanistan nearly killed because he’d became a christian - and Canada. What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? You are aware that Bush already wanted to invade Iraq before 9//11 ever happened, are you not? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/135 "2006-06-06T21:46:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Jesus did not fight any wars, and he did not go on any military expeditions to capture foreign lands. But the Old Testament patriarchs did and there exploits are as much part of Christian doctrine as the New Testament. Of course you could argue that relgions that are based on personal relationships with god and personal behaviour (such as Christianity and Buddism) are theoretically less violent with religions that based on guidelines on how to run a society (such as Judaism or Islam). But this is purely a theoretical (in reality there is not less violence in the histories of these societies), and IS not the same thing as saying Islam is inherently more violent than other religions. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/136 "2006-06-06T21:50:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Being “born again” doesn’t make one a surgeon, being Orthodox Jewish doesn’t make one a psychiatrist, and being Muslim doesn’t make one an engineer. Neither does it make them victims of a mental disorder, which **Der Trihs** maintained and I was trying to refute with my statement. > [@](#): > > These people became professionals through one thing and one thing only-_science_. Wrong. Quite a few things led these examples to their profession in addition to science. People become doctors and engineers for a variety of reasons, such as desire to do good, a natural talent in this particular field, the desire for money, etc. Certainly their knowledge of science helped, but as others have said before, science is neutral. Our hypothetical professionals still had to make the conscious decision to learn science and apply it to their individual ends. > [@](#): > > Without their religion, they would still have all the knowledge and skills they had before, and I believe they would still have the willingness to help others because I still trust in Human nature. The debate over what constitutes human nature aside, how can you be so sure of this? What about the doctors who got their start doing missionary work who said that their faith and their desire to follow Jesus inspired them to overcome whatever hardships there were to achieve their goals? What about the athletes who say the same? Who are you exactly to question their motives or their motivations? > [@](#): > > IMHO, religion is dangerous because it brings debate to a dead stop. You cannot reason with someone who not only truly believes that their diety cannot be defeated(taking away any motivation for compromise), but that their diety created all morals which means that, by definition, their diety cannot be wrong! This puts those who disagree with those of a religious bent in a rather dangerous position usually, because they can be seen as not only wrong but evil, and evil MUST be defeated. So belief in religion brings debate to a complete stop, eh? Well, the students at the school of theology where I used to be a librarian would certainly be surprised to hear _that_! So would the students of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas (as well as any number of Talmudic and Muslim scholars, as well as Karen Armstrong, Martin Luther, H. L. Menck–OK, you get the idea). You’ve pretty much lumped anyone who’s ever believed in a god into the whacko fundy Osama Bin Phelps camp in a single sentence above. Care to rethink your position? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/137 "2006-06-06T21:52:21Z")
Cross off 9/11. I’m not going into an endless and boring debate with you two . It’s been done 2475 times. Please answer the rest. Oh, Today’s religion of peace victims: 6/6/05 Thailand Bangkok 1 0 A 59-year-old Buddhist plantation worker is captured and beheaded by militant Muslims. 6/6/04 Kosovo Gracanica 1 0 17-year-old Christian teenager is shot to death in a restaurant by Muslim terrorists. 6/6/04 Pakistan Dera Ghazi Khan 1 1 Female Shia doctor is gunned down by Sunni radicals outside a hospital. Her driver is seriously wounded in the attack. 6/6/04 Saudi Arabia Riyadh 1 1 Islamist shoots a Briton to death on the sidewalk. One other is injured in the attack. 6/6/04 Iraq Baghdad 9 48 Two suicide bombers, belonging to a group calling itself the ‘Unification and Jihad Group’ kill nine Iraqis and injure forty-eight others. 6/6/02 Nigeria Katsina 1 0 A Muslim mob clubs a Christian police officer to death after a cleric makes false charges that he trampled a Qur’an. 6/6/02 Afghanistan Kabul 2 0 The country’s Deputy President and his driver are assassinated by the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/138 "2006-06-06T21:54:54Z")
And this month’s : 6/6/06 Iraq Baqubah 9 0 Nine more severed heads are found, courtesy of the Religion of Peace… 6/6/06 Iraq Baghdad 5 7 At least two women are among five civilians killed by Muslim terrorists in three attacks, which include a husband and wife gunned down on a city street. 6/5/06 Iraq Suwayra 4 0 Four men are stabbed to death by Muslim militants. 6/4/06 Afghanistan Kandahar 4 13 A suicidal religious extremist blows up four civilians with an explosives-laden vehicle. 6/4/06 India Rajouri 1 0 Islamic radicals kill a man inside his home. 6/4/06 Pal. Auth Gaza 3 0 Three civilian bystanders are shot to death by Hamas gunmen. 6/4/06 Pal. Auth. Khan Younis 1 2 Militants kill a pregnant woman. 6/4/06 Pakistan Shena Khowar 2 3 al-Qaeda back militants use an IED to kill two Pakistani soldiers in a roadside blast. 6/4/06 Ingushetia Nazran 1 2 Muslim militants kill a soldier in a terror attack. 6/4/06 Iraq Baghdad 19 2 Radical Islamic gunmen kill four employees at a local company and fifteen others in various parts of the capital. 6/4/06 Iraq Diyala 21 1 Sunnis drag twenty-one people, mostly Shia high school students, from a bus and execute them in cold blood. 6/4/06 Afghanistan Paktika 1 0 A health official is shot dead by the Taliban as he is leaving his home. 6/3/06 Iraq Baquba 9 2 Islamic radicals storm an auto parts shop killing three workers. Six police are killed in a separate attack on a checkpoint. 6/3/06 Iraq Baquba 8 0 Eight severed Sunni heads are found. 6/3/06 Iraq Baghdad 23 4 Twenty-two bodies are found showing signs of torture and Islamists also kill a Russian diplomat. 6/3/06 Iraq Basra 28 62 ‘Insurgents’ bomb a packed market, blowing twenty-eight innocent souls to Allah and injuring dozens more. 6/2/06 Pakistan Noor Gul 2 1 Two people are killed when militants fire a rocket at a house. 6/2/06 Iraq Baghdad 7 61 Three terrorist bombings, two at the same market, kill at least seven innocents. 6/2/06 Iraq Khaldiya 3 0 Three victims of sectarian violence are found tortured and executed. 6/2/06 Afghanistan Azmarai 3 0 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills three civilians returning from a picnic. 6/2/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A local official is gunned down by Islamists. 6/2/06 Pakistan Miran Shah 4 7 Two Fedayeen suicide bombers blow themselves to Allah, taking four Pakistani soliders with them. 6/2/06 Syria Damascus 1 0 Armed Islamists attempt to strom a radio station. A security guard is killed. 6/2/06 India Bhata 1 0 A civilian is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen. 6/1/06 Iraq Baghdad 6 21 Islamic terrorist kill six people, including two laborers in a roadside bombing. 6/1/06 Kosovo Zitkovac 1 0 A 22-year-old man is shot to death in an automatic weapons ambush by suspected Albanians. 6/1/06 India Budhal 1 0 A civilian is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen. 6/1/06 Iraq Samarra 1 4 A woman is blown apart by Islamic terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/139 "2006-06-06T22:18:24Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > But the Old Testament patriarchs did and there exploits are as much part of Christian doctrine as the New Testament. The Old Testament patriarchs are not the founders of Christianity. Jesus was. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/140 "2006-06-06T22:23:57Z")
Christianity accepts the Hebrew Bible as authoritative scripture. All that OT stuff where God commands the indiscriminate slaughter of whole populations (including infants and children) is just as much a part of Christian scripture as the New Testament. You can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist. And what about the quote from Jesus I cited above? Here it is again: _But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me._ Is that a peaceful message? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497.md?page=8)