# Islam is a Violent Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497 "2006-06-05T16:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/161 "2006-06-07T01:15:43Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I never said I wanted a world of religion without science. I am quite sure you will never find a post of mine where I said this. I completely understand what “imagine” means, but you seem to believe that if we could eradicate religion, the world would be a wonderful place where there was no evil, and all humans were rational at all times. That isn’t imagination…that is just as much fantasy as you think religion is. I never said that you said this, i merely postulated that science was more valuable in the long run than religion, and if we had to do without one or the other, we would do better without religion. Speaking of quoting that which was never said, where in the hell did I ever make a statement even close to what you just said? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/162 "2006-06-07T01:17:12Z")
Ah, easier to find than I thought. Here’s a news story on the subject. [Link](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html) > [@](#): > > RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. > > According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. > > The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society. > > It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality. > > \< snip \> > > “In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. > > “The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.” ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/163 "2006-06-07T01:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Again I ask, if one group can accomplish great works while praying, and another group can accomplish great works _without_ praying, where is the only common ground? That which truly lets them accomplish those great works. Who says there has to be any common ground? The “That” in “That which truly lets them accomplish great things” isn’t just one thing. There are about a billion different things that mirror a billion different people’s outlook. Some revolve around religion. Some don’t. It seems to me, **Czarcasm** , that you’re taking all the problems humanity has struggled with over the past however many millenia and calling them “religion”. Then when someone calls you on it, you retreat back into your scientific fantasy world–and it _is_ a fantasy world–and just stew at the rest of us trying to work things out in the actual real physical world we happen to find ourselves. This real world comes complete with a whole lot of people who are religious, who aren’t going anywhere, and who are actually pretty decent, once you get over yourself and start to accept them as something more than brainwashed idiots who aren’t quite at your level of enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/164 "2006-06-07T01:33:13Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And the “evil religion” is in places like the White House and Iran; it’s not under the bed, it’s in control. And in NK, and in China, where they don’t need gods to royally mess things up. I still can’t figure out how you can have a religion without a god. Interesting link, and I’d like to read the research sometime. Unfortunately, all I’m seeing is a story in a popular English newspaper talking about how the U.S. might not be better than England (which might very well be true) and talking about a correlation (not necessarily a causal relationship) between the U.S. and societal ills. Hardly what I’d call definitive proof–and I’d actually quite interested to see how he lays STD’s at religion’s door. Suddenly I’m skeptical. In any case, your article doesn’t go into the actual research. At all. So I guess we have to wait to see how right you are. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/165 "2006-06-07T01:37:26Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > I still can’t figure out how you can have a religion without a god. [\*You \* tell 360 million Buddhists they are wrong.](http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=581) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/166 "2006-06-07T01:38:47Z")
**Linty Fresh** , you won’t entertain the idea of my “fantasy world” as you call it, yet I have to live in a fantasy world of a thousand conflicting religions with a thousand conflicting gods and tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of conflicting rules of conduct. I don’t mind the actual physical real world at all-in fact, I much prefer it to what is being offered in large parts of so-called civilised society. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/167 "2006-06-07T01:40:56Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > [\*You \* tell 360 million Buddhists they are wrong.](http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=581) Touche. I should have said “Without a notion of spirituality that transcends man and human nature.” Which communism definitely does not have. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/168 "2006-06-07T01:43:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I never said that you said this, i merely postulated that science was more valuable in the long run than religion, and if we had to do without one or the other, we would do better without religion. Speaking of quoting that which was never said, where in the hell did I ever make a statement even close to what you just said? If this isn’t the world you are imagining, then why remove religion from the picture? If people are going to be just as irrational and prone to evil without religion, why does it matter to you if it exists or not? Personally, I wouldn’t want science without religion, and I wouldn’t want religion without science. I don’t think EITHER would be better without the other. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/169 "2006-06-07T01:44:03Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Touche. I should have said “Without a notion of spirituality that transcends man and human nature.” Which communism definitely does not have. Communism is a religion? That would come as a surprise to Karl Marx, what with all that “opiate of the people” ranting . ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/170 "2006-06-07T01:44:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Linty Fresh** , you won’t entertain the idea of my “fantasy world” as you call it, yet I have to live in a fantasy world of a thousand conflicting religions with a thousand conflicting gods and tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of conflicting rules of conduct. I don’t mind the actual physical real world at all-in fact, I much prefer it to what is being offered in large parts of so-called civilised society. The difference being, of course, that the world of a thousand conflicting religions and gods actually exists, even if the gods in question don’t. I’m not sure what _you’re_ calling the actual physical real world, but if it’s not chock-full with religious people, I don’t think anyone’s actually seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/171 "2006-06-07T01:46:06Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Communism is a religion? That would come as a surprise to Karl Marx, what with all that “opiate of the people” ranting . Ohhh, I’m with you on that! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/172 "2006-06-07T01:48:27Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Ohhh, I’m with you on that! I’m confused then. Do you believe communism is a religion or not? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/173 "2006-06-07T01:50:03Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I’m confused then. Do you believe communism is a religion or not? No, I don’t. I was responding to **Der Trihs** who maintained that communism was a religion in an earlier post. Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/174 "2006-06-07T01:59:26Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > If this isn’t the world you are imagining, then why remove religion from the picture? If people are going to be just as irrational and prone to evil without religion, why does it matter to you if it exists or not? Personally, I wouldn’t want science without religion, and I wouldn’t want religion without science. I don’t think EITHER would be better without the other. Turn your own statement around, please. If people are going to be just as irrational and prone to evil _with_ religion, why add it to the picture? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/175 "2006-06-07T02:02:32Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > The difference being, of course, that the world of a thousand conflicting religions and gods actually exists, even if the gods in question don’t. I’m not sure what _you’re_ calling the actual physical real world, but if it’s not chock-full with religious people, I don’t think anyone’s actually seen it. The actual physical world? That which exists whether you believe in gods or not. Trees, sunlight, gravity, the love I have for my extended family-all of these will exist no matter what I do or do not believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/176 "2006-06-07T02:05:23Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And the “evil religion” is in places like the White House and Iran; it’s not under the bed, it’s in control. The United States of America is not a theocracy. Therefore there is no religion in control of the country. You can pretend that it is all you want, but that’s all you’ll be doing: pretending. Another thing: the United States of America is not a developing democracy. It’s already developed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/177 "2006-06-07T02:09:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, we would have works of art and inspiration by others, and on another message board in this land without religion there is a debate going on about an imaginary scenario where religion is a large influence, and a poster is asking,“But what about the great scientific works of Millonovic, Chi Wu and Sissiman? How much poorer would this world be without their inspiration?” That’s an absolutely ludicrous example. Right off the bat, you’re talking about “great scientific works,” when I’d been specifically talking about _artistic_ works. Second, you’re continuing in your idiotic dichotomy between science and religion, when no such dichotomy exsists, outside of your mind and that of the more rabid Young-Earth Creationists. Thirdly, your example doesn’t even make sense, as your talking about a debate about the impact of religion in a fantasy world where _religion doesn’t exsist in the first place._ And lastly, your analogy fails because I haven’t argued that science is _pre-empting_ art in any fashion: I’m arguing that without religion, the vast majority of great works of art would not exsist. Where would the great art of the middle ages have come from, without the church to fund it? The great cathedrals and mosques would not exsist, and there would be no secular analogue for them, because there’s no secular reason to build a cathedral. Notre Dame would likely be a parking lot, the Haghia Sophia an office building. Tolkien would just be an obscure Oxford linguist. The net effect on the world of art would be a definite negative. And this would be a bad thing. It would not be _as bad_ a thing as a world without science, but that’s entirely beside the point. You claimed that a world without religion would be no worse than the one we have now: I say this is not so. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/178 "2006-06-07T02:12:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The United States of America is not a theocracy. Therefore there is no religion in control of the country. You can pretend that it is all you want, but that’s all you’ll be doing: pretending. A theocracy is a state in which religious rules are law, and are protected by the state. Clearly that’s not America. But surely religion does have some control over the country? George Bush, as well as many other people holding governmental, commercial or cultural power, are religious, and most religions hold that you should live your life by religious rules, and that these rules are \*the best \* rules to live by. By exercising their power in accordance with those beliefs, religion has some control over America (and any other nation). Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/179 "2006-06-07T02:14:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The actual physical world? That which exists whether you believe in gods or not. Trees, sunlight, gravity, the love I have for my extended family-all of these will exist no matter what I do or do not believe in. No one’s brought up what _you_ believe in. It’s what the theists believe in that we’re talking about. I’m happy that you have sunlight, love, and gravity. But you have to realize that sunlight, love, and gravity all exist in the real world together with those religious people. It’s not what exists that’s important to this debate, **Czarcasm** ; it’s what doesn’t exist, namely the world with science but no religion that you seem to think will cure the world’s ills somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497/180 "2006-06-07T02:15:26Z")
The assertion made by Der Trihs is that the religioin is in control. It’s not. Whether religous beliefs motivate the majority of the population is irrelevant to that assertion for the simple reason that there is a vast array of religious beliefs in the United States. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-is-a-violent-religion/359497.md?page=10)