# Islam, the religion of peace... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055 "2002-11-21T23:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/301 "2002-11-30T06:48:54Z")
**tomndebb** –I’m about to sign off now and don’t have time to address your points in the detail they observe. I’d just remark that a key question might be what Islam stands to evolve into. As a cultural force (and not just a religion), Christianity has certainly had some destructive phases in its history, but now is relatively quiescent. Perhaps these things go in cycles. What kind of dynamics are going on in Islam that would enable al Qaeda to exploit its doctrines the way it has, at this particular point in the religion’s history? That’s it–good night. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/302 "2002-11-30T06:58:59Z")
“you have not shown a glimmer of understanding of the points I raised in my previous posts,” Nope I understand what you are trying to say just fine; it’s just that your arguments don’t hold up. “stop putting words in my mouth for which you have no support whatsoever” Notice the word “seem” and “as if”. I didn’t put words in your mouth. I was just trying to figure out why you are so obsessed by the “global” reach of Islamic terrorists as compared to the number of people they actually kill. It’s as if you think that killing X number of people globally is morally worse than killing 2X number of people in one place. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/303 "2002-11-30T17:56:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > Well, it is certainly true that when Christianity was injected into most regions of the globe it brought instability. As I mentioned in my previous posts, I agree that Christianity has gone through phases where it exported radicalism in much the same was that significant facets of Islam do today. I think _any_ universal ideology carries similar dangers. But Christianity has been largely tamed in the West through the Enlightenment and the attendant separation of church and state. > [@](#): > > Up until a very few years ago, we saw no Muslims doing this, either. It is not as though this has been a pattern of behavior throughout the history of Islam. But didn’t Islam [start out](http://eawc.evansville.edu/chronology/ispage.htm) as a religion of conquest? > [@](#): > > We are now looking at a specific group (al Qaida) that has been able to manipulate a few adherents to Islam (and provide funds to them) to begin a specific set of terrorist acts. Certainly al Qaida has effectively used their Islamist connection to recruit new members. I think it would be silly to deny that. bin Laden has been very effective in conveying his own religious zealotry in a message that resonates among some other Muslims. Yes, and I argue that there _are_ strains in Islam’s universal ideology, in its aggressive history, and in its lack of checks and balances in its resident cultures, that make its followers particularly susceptible to this kind of appeal. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, he has failed to bring the entire Muslim world to its feet to strive against the West; he has succeeded only in attracting a limited number of fanatics to his cause. He has the wealth and the organizational skills to enable him to wield that small group as a fierce weapon, but he been unable to get the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, or even his own Saudis to rise up and cast off their “secular chains” and install true Muslim governments in their countres. Doesn’t matter in terms of the threat posed by radical Islam. In an era where a small band of less than twenty radicals could bring down the World Trade Center and come close to destroying the White House and the Capitol, a limited number of fanatics is all bin Laden and his successors need to destabilize the world. I think Thomas Friedman has been quite prescient on this count; even before 9/11 he cited bin Laden in warning of the threat posed by “super empowered angry men”. Now, looking back on 9/11, he [writes](http://www.fsgbooks.com/fsg/longitudesandattitudesexcrpt.htm): > [@](#): > > Because globalization has brought down many of the walls that limited the movement and reach of people, and because it has simultaneously wired the world into networks, it gives more power to individuals to influence both markets and nation-states than at any other time in history . . . globalization can be an incredible force – multiplier for individuals. Individuals can increasingly act on the world stage directly, unmediated by a state. > > So you have today not only a superpower, not only Supermarkets, but also what I call “super-empowered individuals.” Some of these super-empowered individuals are quite angry, some of them quite wonderful – but all of them are now able to act much more directly and much more powerfully on the world stage. > > Osama bin Laden declared war on the United States in the late 1990s, and after he organized the bombing of two American embassies in Africa, the U.S. Air Force retaliated with a cruise missile attack on his bases in Afghanistan as though he were another nation-state. Think about that: on one day in 1998, the United States fired 75 cruise missiles at bin Laden. The United States fired 75 cruise missiles, at $1 million apiece, at a person! That was the first battle in history between a superpower and a super-empowered angry man. September 11 was just the second such battle. > [@](#): > > I see no reason to project some inherent aspect of Islam onto that situation. We never saw Christians do the same things–but Christianity has never been in the position of being the single link across half the Third World. But it did unite a continent behind the savagery of the Crusades. It did provide an ideological fig leaf for the Spanish conquest of the Americas. Oh, Christianity has had plenty of influence on the world stage. As a competing universal ideology, cultural Christianity has at least as much blood on its hands as Islam. However, and this is the crux of my thesis, > [@](#): > > What in Christianity would have prevented a similar small group of zealots from recruiting members from quite disparate regions if the situations were reversed? Answer: **Christianity has been defanged as global ideology and Islam has not**. Yes, you can find pockets of violent Christians in Africa and the Middle East, but can they find refuge in Europe or America to carry out their operations from a distance? No, because secularism and a general separation of church and state mean that Christian radicals no longer have refuge as they would have in the Middle Ages. > [@](#): > > If there was a leader out there with the funds and organizational skills to unite the various paramilitary groups to enlarge upon the limited terrorism of bank robberies and harrassment that they committed through the 80s and 90s, would we then say that it was an inherent aspect of Christianity to be violent in that way? _If such a thing had happened_, don’t you think we would be asking that question? But it didn’t happen with today’s Christianity–it happened with Islam. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/304 "2002-11-30T19:00:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _If such a thing had happened_, don’t you think we would be asking that question? But it didn’t happen with today’s Christianity–it happened with Islam. Or, it happened because bin Laden happened to be a wealthy Wahhabist Muslim instead of being born a wealthy but disaffected member of the Assembly of God church. I am not persuaded that had William Pierce (aka Andrew MacDonald) had a bit more money and a bit more ambition he would have been unable to launch a “Christian” equivalent series of terrorist events. It seems in your most recent posts you are simply arguing that the social dynamic for these sorts of terrorist and mob events are _currently_ more frequently found in factions within Islam. I probably have no problem with that expression. I would object to either the notion that Islam is in some way unique in fostering that sort of instability or that there is some inherent violence in Islam that transcends the ages–which are the ideas I read in the OP and the later posts by **Kalt** and **Milroyj**. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/305 "2002-11-30T19:37:51Z")
I thought **milroyj** was the one who was saying that we should be allowed to ignore Christian sectarian violence in 1850, and _you_ were the one who was effectively saying, no, no, we should treat it as if this reflects some inherent tendency that “transcends the ages” to bear some relevence to the Nigerian riots that occurred last week. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/306 "2002-11-30T20:27:26Z")
**Doghouse Reilly** : I fear I am getting confused on who believes what here. What exactly is the case you are laying out against Islam? Is it that it can be easily twisted to violence? I agree. Is it that it that such violence can be a real threat on a global level, because as a non-ethnic ideology Islam can transcend national borders and regional disputes? I agree. Is it that Islam as a religion commands the death of all unbelievers and this is the source of all that violence? I disagree. Is it that Islam _inevitably_ will lead its followers to violence? I disagree. Is that Islam is incompatible with modern democratic ideals? I disagree. The problem with the last three points is that I see insufficient evidence that such a universal statement is warranted. I’ve laid out that case before and see no reason to keep doing so - Either you agree or you don’t. But if your only claims are the first two, then I don’t have any differences with you at all. The only argument would then be what to do about it. And to that I can only shrug and say “I dunno.” Combat the extremism, try to live down and counter the anti-western paranoia ( difficult with the Israel situation, but every little bit helps ) and help that corner of the world catch up with the west culturally, economically, and socially ( however that might be done ). What other solutions are there? Because obviously, mass conversion or genocide are non-starters. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/307 "2002-11-30T20:33:54Z")
Tamerlane, where did you see me touting the last three points? Or are you just summarizing a couple of different posters’ points here? ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/308 "2002-11-30T21:18:25Z")
**Doghouse Reilly said: Christianity has been defanged as global ideology and Islam has not** I’d like to think that no universally prominent ideology such as, say, organized religion is **permanently defanged**. Ill-intentioned extremists will continue to sprout and the extent of damage they seek to inflict on the other side of their spectrum for whatever reasons is largely a function of the extant state of the peoples, including their ethnic, political, social and economic conditions. Yes, it is absolutely true that in the current conditions there is substantially more violent instability within the Islamic penumbra so to speak but there is no reason not to believe that a similar group calling themselves Christians (call them “The Base”) would be attacking, say, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, if history were re-written. I guess the point is that there is nothing inherent in Islam that allows for the breeding of extremism, and particularly, there is no reason to believe that as a religious faith, it is substantially more or less conducive to extremism. If I understand correctly, you do not think so and that is the essence of your thesis? (One can quibble on the notion of “Jihad” etc but IMHO anything in religious texts can be taken out of context to justify one’s actions). History has the liberal minded Islamic civilization in the medieval period to offer as proof. There is no reason to think such societies cannot grow and flourish within dominantly Muslim countries now. Of course, almost all of them are in the Third World and it may well take a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Mambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mambo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/309 "2002-11-30T21:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*I would feel better if moderate muslims would repudiate the hateful behavior exemplified by Al-Queda. I didn’t hear a singlre voice of protest regarding the events in Kenya, from the imams of the muslim world. > You cannot have it both ways…you either condemn evil or (at least tacitly) condone it. \*\* Beautifully said. The reason that the imams cannot condemn these attacks or other terrorist attacks is because these attacks are in accordance to their scriptural (koranic) teachings. It is the American Muslims who have been willing to criticize these attacks (which means they are speaking out against Islamic teaching even if they don’r realize it). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/310 "2002-11-30T21:59:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Tamerlane, where did you see me touting the last three points? Or are you just summarizing a couple of different posters’ points here? The second. As I said, I’m not entirely certain what point you are arguing. If you’re just arguing the first two ( and it seems you might be ), then it really has little bearing on this thread ( IMO ). This debate has primarily been revolving around whether Islam can be condemned in toto. If that’s not your position then you are not “the opposition” and I am wasting my time debating someone I don’t disagree with ;). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/311 "2002-11-30T23:23:25Z")
Mambo: Please tell me you’re joking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/312 "2002-11-30T23:41:07Z")
> [@](#): > > we should treat it as if this reflects some inherent tendency that “transcends the ages” No. It seemed to me that **Milroyj** was saying that we ought to judge every society equally _right now_ (regardless of the history or the length of time that they have been in development), while I was maintaining that the specific dates of the various riots are too close in the relative ages of the societies to allow us to claim natural superiority for the people who happened to have an older history. I explicitly excluded the Crusades, for example, because the _societies_ had changed. I would exclude the initial Muslim conquest of North Africa for the same reason–the society that engaged in that conquest looks nothing like any of its successor societies. On the other hand, the religious riots in the U.S. and the religious riots in Nigeria each occurred at a point when both countries had fewer than one hundred years of pluralism and multicultural experience. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/313 "2002-12-01T01:20:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **I am saying that Nigerian society is at an earlier stage of development.** OK, but wouldn’t the collarary of that statement be that American society is at a later, more advanced stage of development? If so, isn’t that one of the attitudes, expressed by Americans such as yourself, that contribute to “Why they hate us?” The attitude of superiority, and condescension? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/314 "2002-12-01T02:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > wouldn’t the collarary of that statement be that American society is at a later, more advanced stage of development? I say later, (but not by much–we’re still having riots, they just tend to be less frequently based on religion). You tack on “advanced.” I would not add that kind of judgement, any more than I would presume to say that Canada was more “advanced” than the U.S. because it has tended to have fewer riots of any sort, or that the U.S. is more “advanced” than Europe because we have no lengthy history of pogroms against Jews. Many different factors contribute to any event. A very specific point I have made is that the differences in “age” of the societies we are comparing are fairly trivial. I would never base a policy on some prior supposition that a group would be too immature to handle it. If an event occurs, however, I will look to parallels in other societies to see whether that event is an aberration or something that is likely (not foreordained) to occur. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/315 "2002-12-01T04:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **If an event occurs, however, I will look to parallels in other societies to see whether that event is an aberration or something that is likely (not foreordained) to occur.** In an attempt to explain, or even justify, said event, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/316 "2002-12-01T04:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > or even justify This is what, the third or fourth time you’ve posted this lie? You demostrate only your own lack of thought on the subject when you constantly attribute ideas to other people that they have not expressed. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/317 "2002-12-01T05:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*This is what, the third or fourth time you’ve posted this lie? You demostrate only your own lack of thought on the subject when you constantly attribute ideas to other people that they have not expressed. \*\* Ok Tom, you don’t “justify” anything in your posts, you just try to “explain”, in upright SDMB fighting ignorance fashion. Good on you. Which is fine as far as it goes, but there is a point where one must call b.s. I guess Nigerian culture is less advanced, so riots are almost to be expected. I guess Palestinians are being opressed, so the intifada is almost to be expected. I guess there are American troops in Saudi, and we generally support Israel, so Bin-Laden’s actions are almost to be expected. You know, people get on other posters for being too “black and white” in their thinking, but there is such a thing as being too “gray” in your thinking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/318 "2002-12-01T06:22:51Z")
Expecting something and condoning it are different. I gather from your posts that you have some personal need to call down condemnation on all Muslims and all Palestinians because of the actions of a few. That is your right, I suppose. However, in these threads I am generally not defending the actions of those who have harmed others, I am trying to show that such blanket condemnations as you enjoy _will harm us_. When the British treated all Catholics in Northern Ireland as “the enemy” they provided the IRA with the best recruiting drive possible. When the U.S. insisted that anyone who ever talked to a Marxist was a nasty commie and had to be opposed, regardless of their actual intentions, we _created_ opponents out of Ho Chi Minh and his followers who had originally sought our support, we _created_ the monsters in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Iran, Indonesia, the Philippines, and other places who eventually entangled us in their atrocities or their wars or the revolts against them. When the U.S. pursued a policy of “the only good indian is a dead indian,” we created wars with people who had originally sought to try to join us. Understanding a situation does not mean condoning it. It means learning enough about the _real_ situation to find ways to help the right people so that the situation will improve and future generations will be our friends. Painting the whole world as “bad guys” and “good guys” based on current political fads while ignoring the local realities always harms us in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/319 "2002-12-01T22:45:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*It means learning enough about the _real_ situation to find ways to help the right people so that the situation will improve and future generations will be our friends. \*\* So what solutions do you offer to “help the right people so that the situation will improve”? Should the Nigerian Christian Ibo voluntarily submit to sharia? Should the Israelis drive _themselves_ into the sea? Should the Americans pack up and leave the Middle East entirely? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055/320 "2002-12-01T23:04:44Z")
> [@](#): > > So what solutions do you offer to “help the right people so that the situation will improve”? My suggestions for the Middle East have already been posted on threads on those topics. I do not pretend to understand Nigerian culture well enough to dictate a solution to them. I resist condemning billions of people out of the ignorance that claims they are all the same. This thread is about supporting lock-step, simplistic ignorance or resisting that form of ignorance and seeking information. Obviously, I prefer to seek information rather than issuing blanket condemnations out of ignorance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islam-the-religion-of-peace/138055.md?page=17)