# Islamic State publishes Military Officer's Reidential location and advocates revenge killings. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683 "2015-03-22T14:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/21 "2015-03-22T16:55:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln? Go read the OP. That is the exact debate I proposed. There plenty of other threads on the inequities of IS. If you do not want to debate the practice of killing of people as identified individuals as a war aim (which is forbidden) then please do not bother to enter the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/22 "2015-03-22T17:08:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > o debate the practice of killing of people as identified individuals as a war aim (which is forbidden) … Et? In what way is killing identified combattantes “forbidden”? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/23 "2015-03-22T17:10:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Where did I state that? You rather strongly implied it in Valteron’s silly thread whining about Muslims who want to kill apostates. You very strongly implied that you saw executions performed in the West as equally immoral. > [@](#): > > I feel Judicial Killing is wrong in the same way that most Westerners believe that killing someone for apostasy is wrong. > > I hold that killing someone without overweening empirical necessity is wrong. Others have less concern over the sanctity of human life. You in fact insisted that > [@](#): > > There is no difference between the cases save the basic beliefs concerned And then preceded to explain why you were morally superior to westerners who favored executing convicted murderers and Muslims who favored forth ting and executing apostates. > [@](#): > > And on the other side are those willing to engage in unnecessary killings for their own axiomatic beliefs- death penalty advocates and Islamic fanatics killing apostates. Perhaps you didn’t intend to send the message that the Israelis who hanged Eichmann and the Iranians who executed a man for abandoning Islam were morally the same, but that is certainly what you implied. FWIW, while I find such logic silly, many don’t and no insult was implied and I respect those who morally oppose all executions equally. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/24 "2015-03-22T17:10:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did anyone read the link? Far be it from me to defend the so-called Islamic State (SCIS), but the article says they have instructed sympathizers in the US to kill military personnel-- nothing about families. So the people being called on to shoot/bomb/whatever military personnel in their homes will magically spare the family members and neighbors of their targets? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/25 "2015-03-22T17:11:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If you do not want to debate the practice of killing of people as identified individuals as a war aim (which is forbidden) Forbidden by whom? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/26 "2015-03-22T17:20:45Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So the people being called on to shoot/bomb/whatever military personnel in their homes will magically spare the family members and neighbors of their targets? You’re right. I should have posted something like this: > [@John Mace](#): > > Now, that may not be the whole story, and the SCIS has a history of deliberately killing civilians… Oh wait, I did. You must’ve somehow forgotten to quote that part! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/27 "2015-03-22T17:21:29Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So the people being called on to shoot/bomb/whatever military personnel in their homes will magically spare the family members and neighbors of their targets? Well it does not spare either the non combattants who are killed by your drone strikes on family houses either. In this narrow area there is not a great difference, I agree with Mace. If you wish to make a difference, I do not believe the americans are without care. The DAESH is and deliberately without care. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/28 "2015-03-22T17:22:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The question is, does the SCIS have the moral authority to direct attacks against the military in the US? I don’t see why not. We’re attacking them, militarily. They have the right to try to kill us, and we have the right to try to stop them - and vice versa. That’s how war works. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/29 "2015-03-22T17:27:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Forbidden by whom? The general rules of war which historically banned individual targeted assassinations of individuals as individuals. Discussion here: > **[What are the rules for government-sponsored assassinations?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2009/07/what-are-the-rules-for-government-sponsored-assassinations.html)** > > Last month, the Central Intelligence Agency canceled a secret initiative, authorized by the president in 2001, to capture or kill senior al-Qaida... > **[What are the rules for government-sponsored assassinations?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2009/07/what-are-the-rules-for-government-sponsored-assassinations.html)** > > Last month, the Central Intelligence Agency canceled a secret initiative, authorized by the president in 2001, to capture or kill senior al-Qaida... > **[Bin Laden's killing without process undermines rule of law](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-03/barns3a/1207838)** > > The killing of Osama Bin Laden provides a disturbing reminder that the West’s rhetoric on the universality of human rights and the rule of law is easily sacrificed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/30 "2015-03-22T17:28:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They have the right to try to kill us, and we have the right to try to stop them - and vice versa. That’s how war works. Except where contrary to Conventions and Laws. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/31 "2015-03-22T17:32:43Z")
Sterile… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/32 "2015-03-22T17:36:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The general rules of war which historically banned individual targeted assassinations of individuals as individuals. > > Discussion here: > > [What are the rules for government-sponsored assassinations?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/07/are_assassinations_ever_legal.html) > > [What are the rules for government-sponsored assassinations?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/07/are_assassinations_ever_legal.html) > > [Bin Laden's killing without process undermines rule of law - ABC News](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-03/barns3a/1207838) If you’re using the word “historically” to hint at what those links say – that we of course have quite readily done it in _this_ century, as forbidden by nobody – then I’d reply that I of course have no problem with us doing it, in this century, as forbidden by nobody, and can’t see why you’re mentioning it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/33 "2015-03-22T17:43:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Except where contrary to Conventions and Laws. Which conventions and laws? Be specific - article, section etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/34 "2015-03-22T17:51:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Go read the OP. That is the exact debate I proposed. There plenty of other threads on the inequities of IS. > > If you do not want to debate the practice of killing of people as identified individuals as a war aim (which is forbidden) then please do not bother to enter the debate. What are you, the opinion police that decides who can debate in your threads and who can’t? You’ve provided a facile debate and propose that posters shouldn’t be allowed to bring actual context to the question. The problem is, of course, that the only way your argument of equivalency (and the implicit charge of American hypocrisy) makes sense is if one wears political blinders to exclude facts, opinions, and concepts that are at odds with the narrow minded point you’re trying to argue for. Can I take it by your response that if one broadens their mind at all to the morality of killing by ISIL and the morality of killing by Western militaries, that we can all agree that ISIL is worse by huge, huge margins? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/35 "2015-03-22T17:55:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Which conventions and laws? Be specific - article, section etc. As per **Pjen** ’s link, _“The 2001 **Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Terrorists** , a congressional resolution that grants the president the right to use ‘all necessary and appropriate force’ against those who helped commit the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, arguably licenses the CIA to go after terrorists with impunity … The Israeli military regularly engages in targeted killings. That country’s Supreme Court has ruled that these are legal so long as the targets are actively engaged in fighting or else work as full-time militants.”_ I rather like that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/36 "2015-03-22T17:59:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The general rules of war which historically banned individual targeted assassinations of individuals as individuals. > > Discussion here: > > [What are the rules for government-sponsored assassinations?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/07/are_assassinations_ever_legal.html) > > [What are the rules for government-sponsored assassinations?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/07/are_assassinations_ever_legal.html) > > [Bin Laden's killing without process undermines rule of law - ABC News](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-03/barns3a/1207838) According to an ACLU paper, > [@](#): > > Targeted killing is usually legal only in armed conflict situations when used against combatants or fighters, or civilians who directly engage in combat-like activities, and international law requires that any state that uses targeted killing must demonstrate that its actions comply with the laws of war. The most reputable civil rights organization in the US apparently disagrees with your opinion that assassinations have been historically illegal. They just say that such killing needs to comply with certain processes. This article was written by a former UN rapporteur on extrajudicial killings. > **[Statement of U.N. Special Rapporteur on U.S. Targeted Killings Without Due...](https://www.aclu.org/documents/statement-un-special-rapporteur-us-targeted-killings-without-due-process)** > > Statement of Professor Philip Alston, John Norton Pomeroy Professor of Law, NYU School of Law, former U.N. Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions (2004-2010), and author of a report on targeted killings submitted to the... ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/37 "2015-03-22T18:00:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What are you, the opinion police that decides who can debate in your threads and who can’t? > > You’ve provided a facile debate and propose that posters shouldn’t be allowed to bring actual context to the question. The problem is, of course, that the only way your argument of equivalency (and the implicit charge of American hypocrisy) makes sense is if one wears political blinders to exclude facts, opinions, and concepts that are at odds with the narrow minded point you’re trying to argue for. > > Can I take it by your response that if one broadens their mind at all to the morality of killing by ISIL and the morality of killing by Western militaries, that we can all agree that ISIL is worse by huge, huge margins? You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Please feel free to share it on a thread actually concerning your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/38 "2015-03-22T18:06:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > According to an ACLU paper, The most reputable civil rights organization in the US apparently disagrees with your opinion that assassinations have been historically illegal. They just say that such killing needs to comply with certain processes. This article was written by a former UN rapporteur on extrajudicial killings. > > [Statement of U.N. Special Rapporteur on U.S. Targeted Killings Without Due Process | American Civil Liberties Union](https://www.aclu.org/national-security/statement-un-special-rapporteur-us-targeted-killings-without-due-process) As habitual type of understanding for the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/39 "2015-03-22T18:08:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Please feel free to share it on a thread actually concerning your beliefs. In your OP, you said, “ **Aside from the question of “us and them”** how does this differ from ill guided drone attacks in Afghanistan.” The issue of “us and them” would seem to mean that the objection to ISIL killing people is because they aren’t American, British, etc. I pointed out they ISIL is routinely conducting shocking and disgusting violations of human rights and the laws of war in an intentional manner. In comparison, Western militaries that injure or kill civilians almost always do so within the laws of war. I’m debating your stupid OP. How about an on-topic response? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683/40 "2015-03-22T18:10:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > According to an ACLU paper, The most reputable civil rights organization in the US apparently disagrees with your opinion that assassinations have been historically illegal. They just say that such killing needs to comply with certain processes. This article was written by a former UN rapporteur on extrajudicial killings. > > [Statement of U.N. Special Rapporteur on U.S. Targeted Killings Without Due Process | American Civil Liberties Union](https://www.aclu.org/national-security/statement-un-special-rapporteur-us-targeted-killings-without-due-process) The full text from your cite: The United States’ assertion of an ever-expanding but ill-defined license to commit targeted killings against individuals around the globe, without accountability, does grave damage to the international legal frameworks designed to protect the right to life. Targeted killing – defined as the intentional, premeditated, and deliberate use of lethal force, by a state or its agents acting under color of law, against a specific individual who is not in the perpetrator’s custody – is permitted only in exceptional circumstances. Targeted killing is usually legal only in armed conflict situations when used against combatants or fighters, or civilians who directly engage in combat-like activities, and international law requires that any state that uses targeted killing must demonstrate that its actions comply with the laws of war. [COLOR=“Red”]To comply with its accountability obligations, the United States should disclose when and where it has authorized its forces, including the Central Intelligence Agency, to kill, the criteria for individuals who may be killed, how the U.S. Government ensures killings are legal, and what follow-up there is when civilians are illegally killed. Disclosure of these basic legal determinations is the very essence of accountability, but the United States has so far failed to meet this requirement. Instead, it has claimed a broad and novel theory that there is a ‘law of 9/11’ that enables it to legally use force in the territory of other States as part of its inherent right to self-defence on the basis that it is in an armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban and undefined ‘associated forces’. This expansive and open-ended interpretation of the right to self-defence threatens to destroy the prohibition on the use of armed force contained in the UN Charter, which is essential to the international rule of law. If other states were to claim the broad-based authority that the United States does, to kill people anywhere, anytime, the result would be chaos. The serious challenges posed by terrorism are undeniable, but the fact that enemies do not play by the rules does not mean that the U.S. Government can unilaterally re-interpret them or cast them aside. The credibility of the U.S. Government’s claim that it has turned the page on previous wrongdoing and seeks to uphold the rule of law in its actions against alleged ‘terrorists’ is called into question by its targeted killing policy.[/COLOR] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamic-state-publishes-military-officers-reidential-location-and-advocates-revenge-killings/715683.md?page=3)