# Islamophobia follows from observing Islam-majority nations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229 "2017-02-07T15:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/41 "2017-02-07T19:50:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I didn’t mean feel in the sense of “emotion”, as you seem to be interpreting it. The word “feel” is commonly used in English to mean believe/hold/maintain. But sorry if this was confusing. Not confusing at all. More like, disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/42 "2017-02-07T19:56:12Z")
Interesting. I thought you were being disingenuous in pretending to not know what “feel” meant - it was pretty clear in context IMO. But I figured I’d be polite about it. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/43 "2017-02-07T19:56:45Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Islam-majority nations are radically different from western democratic nations, and they are different in a qualitative way that is at odds with democratic nations. > > Suspicion against Muslim immigrants does not derive from some sort of irrational, unfair bias against “Muslims.” _Immigrants_ are the people trying to _leave_ those shithole countries you just described. As in, they don’t like them, and don’t want to live there. We should welcome those people with open arms. I get it, Iraq is a shithole. I can totally understand people not wanting to move there. Not sure how that is relevant to the question of people who want to move _here_, though. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/44 "2017-02-07T20:02:45Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > That’s the whole point of calling it Islamophobia, to derail any discussion about the issue. You take umbrage at, say, the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia? why you are just an Islamophobe only fit to be pilloried… usually by the same people that otherwise wear their great concerns about the rights of women on their sleeves. Go figure. “You take umbrage at, say, the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia _and then somehow conclude that Saudi women shouldn’t be allowed to escape that mistreatment by moving to a better country, because they’re icky old Muslims and Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to move to the US_? why you are just an Islamophobe only fit to be pilloried…” Fixed that for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/45 "2017-02-07T20:09:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not a strawman. It is in deed. > [@](#): > > Because if you’re conceding that you don’t think discrimination and bigotry can be eliminated, then your suggestion that concern about immigration is unwarranted You have invented some new goal posts I see. the elimination is your invention as a standard and a distraction. It is of course quite disgusting to use the attitudes of the bigotry and the discrimination as their own self justifications. > [@](#): > > What percentage of your 2,500 posts to this board have not involved you accusing other people of ignorance and/or bigotry? The distracting again I see. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/46 "2017-02-07T20:12:02Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > You have invented some new goal posts I see. > > the elimination is your invention as a standard and a distraction. I’ve explained why elimination is the relevant standard here. No further addition seems necessary. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/47 "2017-02-07T20:19:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Interesting. I thought you were being disingenuous in pretending to not know what “feel” meant - it was pretty clear in context IMO. But I figured I’d be polite about it. More interesting still is that you’d rather play word games than admit that whatever these people “believe/hold/maintain” which informs their “feelings” is not born out by data, i.e., that muslims living in America are no more dangerous than any other group. Thus, an inquisitive person might be left to wonder if they might be misinformed or mislead by those feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/48 "2017-02-07T20:26:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’ve explained why elimination is the relevant standard here. > > No further addition seems necessary. You made an ad hoc assertion to invent some goal posts. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/49 "2017-02-07T20:31:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > More interesting still is that you’d rather play word games than admit that whatever these people “believe/hold/maintain” which informs their “feelings” is not born out by data, i.e., that muslims living in America are no more dangerous than any other group. Thus, an inquisitive person might be left to wonder if they might be misinformed or mislead by those feelings. I see that having seized on this pathetic straw of misinterpreting my words as being about “feelings” you won’t let go of it. Though not completely surprising, considering how weak whatever else you’re saying is. To address the substance of what you’ve said here, such as it is: the data about Muslims living here is not any more “data” than the data about Muslims living elsewhere. Both are the basis for extrapolations about what would happen in a certain hypothetical situation. The fact that you’ve decided that one is “data” and one is not is just about you preferring to extrapolate from one over the other. Possibly due to your own “feelings” about the matter. [Which is leaving aside that no data has been presented about how “dangerous” Muslims living in America are. People who want to make a big deal about “data” would be advised to at least try to understand the data that they’re carrying on about.] ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/50 "2017-02-08T03:13:10Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > “You take umbrage at, say, the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia _and then somehow conclude that Saudi women shouldn’t be allowed to escape that mistreatment by moving to a better country, because they’re icky old Muslims and Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to move to the US_? why you are just an Islamophobe only fit to be pilloried…” > > Fixed that for you. Thank you for proving my point. You seem to be unable to contemplate the possibility that if someone speaks about a particular issue regarding human rights it is not a smokescreen for bigotry. That is exactly the point I was rising, you may not have used the word Islamophobe, but that’s essentially what you called me. What you are doing, and what many do when banding the word “Islamophobia” around, is setting up straw men. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/51 "2017-02-08T03:50:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Are you able to articulate this alleged pattern, or is it more of a vibe, a feeling? This study is from 2001 [https://freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit](https://freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit) > [@](#): > > Of the world’s 192 countries, 121 are electoral democracies. However, only 11 of the 47 nations (23 percent) with an Islamic majority have democratically elected governments. In the non-Islamic world, which comprises 145 states, 110 are electoral democracies (75 percent). Therefore, a non-Islamic state is over three times more likely to be democratic than an Islamic state. None of the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa is a democracy. > > In addition to a democracy divide, there is a dramatic freedom deficit between majority Islamic countries and the rest of the world. Of the states with an Islamic majority, only one, Mali, is rated Free. Eighteen are rated Partly Free, and 28 are considered Not Free. By contrast, in the non-Islamic world, 85 countries are Free, 40 are Partly Free, and 20 are Not Free. Islamic majority nations lag the rest of the world in civil rights and human rights. Like it or not, thats how things are right now. I was hoping things have improved, but looking at this map from 2016, they really haven’t improved in the Muslim world. > **[Anxious Dictators, Wavering Democracies: Global Freedom under Pressure](https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/anxious-dictators-wavering-democracies-global-freedom-under-pressure)** > > The world was battered by crises that fueled xenophobic sentiment in democratic countries, undermined the economies of states dependent on the sale of natural resources, and led authoritarian regimes to crack down harder on dissent. These... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/52 "2017-02-08T03:51:09Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > You seem to be unable to contemplate the possibility that if someone speaks about a particular issue regarding human rights it is not a smokescreen for bigotry. Actually, I think the problem is that if someone who has previously exhibited a distinct lack of interest in the human rights of, e.g., non-white and/or non-western peoples suddenly gets all concerned about, say, oppression of women in a theocratic Islamic society, it frequently **is** a smokescreen for bigotry. Feminists and other liberals have been speaking up against the oppression of women, gays and other persecuted groups in theocratic Islamic societies for a long time. We can usually tell the sincere social-justice warriors from the conservatives who come stampeding in late to the party, eager for an opportunity to complain about discrimination against minorities as long as it’s Muslims who are doing the discriminating. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/53 "2017-02-08T06:42:20Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > How does Indonesia fit in with the OP’s thesis? … Indonesia has problems to be sure, however it really doesn’t fit into the stereotype the OP is presenting … perhaps we should confine ourselves to Arab countries … > … [About 70% of Indonesians favor making Sharia the law of the land, and that religious judges should decide property and domestic disputes.](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/54 "2017-02-08T06:52:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Someone will probably have a more comprehensive cite, but [this poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/Muslim-Americans-No-Justification-Violence.aspx) shows American Muslims to align pretty will with American of other faiths. So it looks like Americans, if they think like you say they do, ignore an important data set that should inform their opinions. [About 15% of American Muslims say there is a great deal of support for extremism in the American Muslim community](http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/), and another 6% say there is a fair amount of support. About 20% of American Muslims say most American Muslims want to be distinct from the larger American community. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/55 "2017-02-08T06:54:44Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > How does Indonesia fit in with the OP’s thesis? … Indonesia has problems to be sure, however it really doesn’t fit into the stereotype the OP is presenting … perhaps we should confine ourselves to Arab countries … [I neglected to mention that about 48% of Indonesians favor stoning as the punishment for adultery](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/). ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/56 "2017-02-08T07:01:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. I was simply saying that if people base their opinions ONLY on what the see happening in majority Muslim countries, they are missing out on an important piece of data. The OP acts as if such data is not available. I agree with you that the attitude of most US Muslims is less antithetical toward western democracy than in Muslim-majority nations, although it is nowhere near as pro-western democracy as the general population of western nations. However my point is that the root of Islamophobia lies in the fact that, when Muslims are the majority, the national culture and laws which prevail are substantially in opposition to western ideals and culture, and that this is the root cause of Islamophobia. That is, the cause of Islamophobia is not (for example) Christianity v Islam. It’s a reaction against what happens to culture and laws when too many Muslims are present in the citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/57 "2017-02-08T07:06:05Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Might I ask what the cultural schemes, specific laws and de facto practices that are broadly antithetical to western culture, law and practices are in Albania and Bosnia? You might, but you would be choosing the exception to the rule, although even in Albania and Bosnia, over 20% favor Sharia law applying to all, and stoning as the punishment for adultery. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/58 "2017-02-08T07:21:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Actually, I think the problem is that if someone who has previously exhibited a distinct lack of interest in the human rights of, e.g., non-white and/or non-western peoples suddenly gets all concerned about, say, oppression of women in a theocratic Islamic society, it frequently **is** a smokescreen for bigotry. > > Feminists and other liberals have been speaking up against the oppression of women, gays and other persecuted groups in theocratic Islamic societies for a long time. We can usually tell the sincere social-justice warriors from the conservatives who come stampeding in late to the party, eager for an opportunity to complain about discrimination against minorities as long as it’s Muslims who are doing the discriminating. Regardless of who is doing the complaining, and for what motive, the fact is that Islam-majority nations are orders of magnitude worse (from a western perspective) wrt women, gays, social or intellectual freedom, apostasy…on and on. In any case, the point I am making has to do with Islamophobia–a distrust of and reaction to the religion itself–and the fact that this is a consequence of the observation of what happens to culture and law when Muslims are in the majority. FWIW, I do not think the “complaint” conservatives have wrt Muslim-majority nations is limited to their treatment of non-Muslims, although that mistreatment is substantial. I think the complaint is that the entire national culture and system of law is crummy (from a western perspective) for all citizens–even the ones who, having been born into it, might accept the status quo as just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/59 "2017-02-08T08:36:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > You might, but you would be choosing the exception to the rule, Ah, exceptions. But you didn’t talk about any exceptions in your OP. In fact your stance as phrased seemed pretty absolute. As written I’d assume even a single exception would invalidate your premise, wouldn’t you? And as **John Mace** noticed, isn’t it peculiar that the exceptions you acknowledge exist just happen to be western democracies themselves. I mean, what are the odds ;)? ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229/60 "2017-02-08T09:34:07Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > How does Indonesia fit in with the OP’s thesis? … Indonesia has problems to be sure, however it really doesn’t fit into the stereotype the OP is presenting … perhaps we should confine ourselves to Arab countries … > > Arabophobia results from a perception that the pattern in Arab-majority countries is a direct consequence of being Arab itself, since that pattern is so universal within Arab-majority nations. > > I’ve heard it argued that Arabs-under-Islam are a bunch of pussycats compared to Arabs-before-Islam … just for some reason Arabs are fond of slaughtering each other off … Indonesia is less terrible than some other muslim majority nations, > **[Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/)** > > According to the survey findings, most Muslims believe sharia is the revealed word of God rather than a body of law developed by men based on the word of but the source material still make it easier to hijack for nefarious ends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/islamophobia-follows-from-observing-islam-majority-nations/779229.md?page=4)